Wasn't it interesting that near the end of the movie that we see Neo for the first time able to use his power as the "One" outside of the Matrix but instead while in his real, flesh state against the machines, which drains him? I am looking forward to seeing what that leads to.

ME TOOOOOO! I have no idea about what the matrix reloaded is about even though I have watched Matrix 1 soooo many damn times, I have it on DVD when it first came out.......my word....

Tooo much... But this article helps a great dealll....

THANKSSSSS... BIG BIG BIG THANKS!

JOEY>
Sydney Australia

Finally, another person who fully understands. I am sooooo sick and tired of the other people, especially friends, who say, "Yeah, it was ok, for the fight scenes...", and I tell them them, "No! It was more than just fight scenes and the orgy scene". And can you believe I know two friends who LOVED the movie for only one scene and nothing else? The Orgy scene! Damn!
Well, anyway, I'm glad there's someone like you around, but now I gotta wait for you to put down a movie that I love. That's what usually happens with me and people who agree on one movie. Oh well :)

this isnt the place but can some one tell me why agents were chasing the key maker, as i imagine they want the one to find the architect so the above conversation can take place..right???

I not going to start defeding that the Merovingian is an old Neo, but saying its not because of the Architect speech isnt exactly correct. Have you ever considered that the Architect could be lying? And about the predecesors thingy, if he is the first, he may be referring to the other 4. I agree with you on everything except this. Im not saying that he is, but Im not discarting the idea either.

Sorry for my bad english. :)

Common sense tells us that the Merovingian is not a "one" because all the ones were human and humans die. The oracle refers to him as "one of us" non human programs from the machine world. I find the the Merovingian represents the devil, he is after all married to persophone. Think about what he does and how he acts in that lights, especially what he says to Neo.

One question, why is he on floor 101?

I know this is kinda hokey, but couldnt there be a bigger matrix that includes Zion? Kinda like the 13th floor?

re the above reference to the "near extinct society" cavorting "thousands of miles underground", please refer to "The Final flight of the Osiris" (the Animatrix - story one on the region 4 DVD) - the crew of the Osiris refer to Zion being only 4km underground... pedantic but it needed to be said, after all this story is supposed to be the prelude to "Reloaded".
I must say, 4km seems to me to represent a very small amount of digging for hyper-sophisticated machines with murder on their minds.

I only have one major query with reloaded and that is, who built Zion? Could it have been built in a hundred years? Does anyone have an explanation?

As to Lattice's comment, My friend who's seen it twice with me has the same theory. I think Neo taking down the Sentinels outside of the Matrix has more to do with Neo having some sort of quasi-link with Smith than there being another level of the Matrix. I think that as Smith becomes more human, (Locate the Revolutions trailer that showed in the Enter The Matrix video game at Comingsoon.net to really see this in action), Neo is perhaps becoming more like a program.

Just another theory, though.

Hi,

With reference to people claiming that the merovingian was a previous 'one'. The origin of the mistake comes from when Persephone says to neo 'that she is tired of all his bullshit' and that when they first came here 'he was just like you'. As a reference to this I believe it was an example of a good soul gone bad through power as the oracle states at the end of her conversation with neo (people with power wanting more power)

With regards to all the characters in the movie claiming to 'already know the future', specifically in this case, the architect and the merovingian. I see that _claiming_ they know what it already going to happen is just a form of power to try and control the others. Wheras they don't actually have a clue. (the main flaw being that a program/machine thinking it knows the future in a interconnected _universe_ when it doesn't have a soul is impossible)

Seeing the architect react the way he does to neo's choice conveys a partial form of surprise, which the architect would not have shown if he were to know that Neo was going to sacrifice the entire human race for Trinity.

good choice ;)

The Merovingian, of course, was not a previous "One", but instead represents the Wachowski brothers' knowledge of Gnostic Christian mythology. The symbolism of the Merovingian traces itself back to just after the Resurrection. Mary Magdalene, the greatest Gnostic prophet (since she was the first person that Jesus talked to after the Resurrection), moved to France with Jesus' brother (I believe it was James) while pregnant with Jesus' son. Mary Magdalene knew the secret of Gnosis, and it was believed that the secret was passed down through her bloodline. All of the Merovingian kings of what would later become France claimed their right to ascend to the throne based on their "secret knowledge" (that is, the secret of Gnosis) and used that "secret" to gain more power.

This is representative of the Merovingian as the Merovingian uses his secret (the Keymaker) to attempt to achieve more power. The Keymaker represents Gnosis since his function in the movie is to open the door to the system center. Gnosis is achieved when the individual transcends the present reality into the realm of the Godhead. Neo uses the Keymaker to transcend the world of the Matrix into the world of the Architect.

This sets up my theory that the "real world" (with Zion and such) is in fact another nested Matrix. This offers the explanation as to why Neo is able to stop machines in the "real world" and why Smith is able to manifest himself in the "real world". Logically, a computer program would not be able to leave the Matrix in the same way that the Freed Minds are. After all, if they could leave the Matrix and inhabit the bodies of Freed Minds, then why wouldn't the Agents just do that ALL THE TIME? Neo, after achieving Gnosis through the Keymaker, is now aware of the false nature of the "real world" and is free to exercise his powers there as well.

This means that the Architect is not the Godhead, but rather the Demiurge. For an explanation of those terms, consult the Gnostic primer at http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm.

My overall opinion of the film, however, was that it was severely lacking in the elements that make a film "good", such as plot, dialogue, and character development. In some instances, the characters actually acted in ways that were grossly OUT OF CHARACTER, such as Morpheus' speech in Zion. However, I do applaud the Wachowski brothers' for reading up on their Gnostic mythology.

I found a paper about the Merovingian Order of the Holy Grail or the Merovingian Templar Gnostic Church:

There are many relations to Gnostic beliefs in the Matrix.

"...It introduces the seeker of truth and knowledge to the basic fundamental principles which define us as a unique religion/culture. Currently there is a dissatisfaction with conventional religion. This decline in faith has been caused by the church€s lack of answers to the ills which plague today€s world, society and community. The religious world view of North America is essentially based on puritanical christian dogma. This religious approach lacks credibility in that it does not explain life, nor account for the ills of the world. Rather than give purpose, it implies guilt by denial of the natural. Conventional religion, teaches €churchism€ rather than €spirituality€. The Merovingian Gnostic Church teaches spirituality, and provides answers concerning life and death, God, Angels, life of Jeshua the Teacher (Jesus), the truth about the crucifixion, where we came from, and what our purpose here is. The answers to these and other questions were written down as a book of wisdom in the year 54AD by Joseph of Arimathea, the natural father of Jeshua the Teacher. The Book of the Holy Grail or Merovingian Bible was spoken unto Joseph of Arimathea by the Neutral Angels who brought the Holy Grail to the Terrestrial Realm (earth), from the Celestial Realm..."

More: http://adam23.freeyellow.com/

(note: there are lots of ads.)

As was mentioned earlier, at the end of the 2nd movie, Neo (which when re-arranged spells One :p) discovers that, he is not only the one, but the one. At the moment, unless you had inside information, that is the best it can be described. By my friends and family, who probably only see me when I go buy another copy on VHS because my other wore out, I am considered a Matradict. This movie never gets old. It is a rare instance, and it only occurs if the directors, and all others on the film's staff can acheive the perfect equilibrium between all aspects and properties of storyline and production. It is a plot so mind-wrenching yet so simple in a way, that a normal human can have memorized the dialog, but still not know the full story.

About the powers outside of the Matrix:
It is hard to attempt to explain what I feel about this... Though the best answer would be that since the sentinals, and anything robotic in nature and controlled by other machines rather than produced or managed by humans, must be controlled by the matrix. Therefore, as Neo is able to bend the matrix to the limit of his will, should he not be able to use that power to control that which is controlled by that which he has power over?

About the Architect:
One theory could be that the Architect is in fact human, preserved by the matrix and while he thinks he controls the choices made in the matrix itself, it is really that which controls and changes him... changes him to the reverse of what the "human-like" programs attempt to become. They try to become more human, while they try to mold humans to "think" like machines.

Overall: I believe the Matrix represents nature.

Earth perspective - When the human population becomes too large, nature, without our consent or our knowlege, will lower the population "intentionally," by desiese or starvation, though we would think it was chance. Also, if your lungs do not recieve enough oxygen, your body forces you to breath. This is called "homeostasis."
Matrix perspective - When the human population in Zion grows to large, it is destroyed, but is started again in order to keep the order in order, and subside chaos. Quoted from the first movie, "It was like a dream which the human mind trys to wake up from." Humans aren't perfect... There must be chaos for a human being to survive. A perfect world would be nice, but the only way that would occur was if everyone expected to have some kind of problem in the future. If that time did not come, there would be no control over the human mind by it's owner, as it would attempt to create it's own chaos, but then the balance is broken, and quite simply, his or her mentality "cracks."

Hope this will make those who don't understand think a little harder before "judging the book by it's cover." :)

Neo's power "outside" of the matrix leans towards a view that he must be within ... another matrix!

I am also leaning towards the matrix within a matrix theory. It does provide the perfect answer to the questions about Neo and Smith. I'm likening it to an Antivirus quarantine. The anomaly is removed to a "safe location" where it won't harm the computer. Thus the people of Zion who have "rejected" the Matrix are still indeed batteries for the machines, but are now accepting of the reality that is being fed to them.

I have a bit of trouble believing that the "Real world" is another Matrix, given the fact that after Neo smashes the machines it becomes a bit predictable. I think almost no one thought that Neo would find the architect, because if there was any inkling to it ( have to watch the movie again), it was a very subtle one.

Smashing the machines like that just get too obvious.

the merovingian is on floor 101. in the original matrix, neo's apartment is #101. in george orwell's, 1984, room 101 is the place that contains the worst thing in the world.

Adding to the previous entry, the chase scene is on (a matrix version of) Highway 101.

Hmm. Well I think you should all take a look at http://www.the-movie-times.com/thrsdir/reviews/discuss2003.hts?matrix2+view (Post # 122). Then think about re-wrighting this webpage. :D

James-I looked up post #122 at the site you suggested. It was interesting but no more factual than the other theories out there at this point. Thanks for pointing to it though. When we see "Revolutions" I think we will all be surprised at least in part. I don't think the makers would tip their hands too much, and want to surprise us with some things they have held back.

Count Zero:

"This sets up my theory that the "real world" (with Zion and such) is in fact another nested Matrix. This offers the explanation as to why Neo is able to stop machines in the "real world" and why Smith is able to manifest himself in the "real world". Logically, a computer program would not be able to leave the Matrix in the same way that the Freed Minds are. After all, if they could leave the Matrix and inhabit the bodies of Freed Minds, then why wouldn't the Agents just do that ALL THE TIME? Neo, after achieving Gnosis through the Keymaker, is now aware of the false nature of the "real world" and is free to exercise his powers there as well.'

The reason agents don't "do that ALL THE TIME" is because they can only inhabit the bodies of those still "hardwired to the system." The only ones in contact with the resistance force are those FREED from the hardwiring of that system.

However, Smith, no longer an agent "of the system" transcends the rules of that system, and can multiply. We learn that at "broadcast depth" a human's mind is sent into the Matrix. Disconnected from the body partially. If that mind is replaced, then the resulting "wake up" of that person will awaken that replaced consciousness. Similar to overwriting your computer's OS. The hardwiring stays the same, but the function is fundamentally changed. Bane becomes Smith.

As for the Matrix-within-a-matrix theory...

No.

If that were true, the movie would ultimately be pointless, meaningless, and a waste of money.

Just for those who were interested in what Merovingian was saying as he swore in french, it translates out as 'Name of god of whore of bloody hell of filth of jerk of asshole of your mother'

Maybe its just me, but it seem as though what he is saying has something to do with the story. He states several swears, rolling from one to the other. This is just like what is happening with the matrix. But thats just my veiw.

- Sydney, Aust.

What if Neo's a control program?

I noticed on the link James posted above that someone noted that Tank says in part one that "he's like a machine." He has the inexplicable ability to bend the Matrix more than the agents can. Then there is the sentinal scene. And how does he know the name "Morpheus" in part one? (I think this is further evidence the Oracle's a tool-- she tells Morpheus he'll find the one and then the Architect tells Neo, via the Matrix, to look for Morpheus.)

Smith crossed over into the Zion world (which might be a larger matrix), so if Neo were a control program he might be able to cross into the regular matrix. Perhaps Neo was created to serve this purpose but to think he is human, and thus not to know his true function. Which is to give the other "anomalies" the perception of hope. Which the architect mentions as one of the worst human attributes.

This is possible because teh architect notes that there are "lesser minds" among prgrams that can conceive of humans. What if neo is the least mind-- the program created to emulate humanity?

I think there might be a case for this idea in the fact that the Architect shows Neo that Trinity is at risk. If the Architect wanted Neo to choose the door to the source, why even mention Trinity? Neo would not have known that she had entered the Matrix otherwise. There would be no reason for him to think she couldn't be one of the females chosen to restart Zion. The only thing I can guess is that the Architecht wanted Neo to choose the door on the left. So the question is "why?"

If Zion were in a second matrix and it were destroyed, that would mean that the machines don't suffer at all. Zion is just a holding place for the anomalies. You can clearly see in the Architect's speech that there is no link between not restarting the Matrix (returning to the source) and continuing to destroy Zion (saving Trinity). There is no reason that destroying Zion would mean the Matrix implodes. The inference I made at first was that if Zion doesn't exist it destroys the illusion of choice. But the fact is that if there is no Zion, the minds that reject the Matrix would either die (i.e. in part one "Entire crops were lost") or go nuts and be comitted to an insane asylum in the Matrix. But it's not like the system would just up and break down.

If the cycle must be completed to ensure the survival of the Matrix, why in the world would the agents be chasing Morpheus and Trinity to eliminate the Keymaker? And why do the machines need to destroy Zion in the first place? Presumably, the coming to power of a One would not present a unique reason to destroy it because they let him/her live on in each cycle (allegedly). Zion supposedly provides the perception of choice and a containment unit for the anomalies. Why destroy it if it ensures the Matrix works?

The only answer I can come up with is maybe there are too many people in Zion. Maybe the machines want Zion to stay a small threat. But only Neo has the capability to defeat the machines. The agents have done fine against the other free minds. So why would that be important?

And why, then, does the Architect want Neo to go through the door on the left? I have two thoughts on that....

First, if Neo returns to Zion and the entire thing is destroyed, there is no One. The last hope is gone. In other words, the Architect lied to Neo. There were no other Ones. He is THE ONE. Maybe the Architect manipulates him into the real world (or perhaps second matrix) so that he will be killed and the threat will be eliminated.

Second, if Neo is a control program then his function might be to return to Zion and therefore ensure the destruction of this cycle of free minds. After which, the Architect would then create a new grand Matrix and establish a new Zion and insert a new crop into it and a new One into the matrix inside the matrix.

Thoughts?

THERE IS NO "MATRIX-WITHIN-A-MATRIX"!

Reason being, that Neo would not have lost consciousness. Furthermore, it wasn't some magic, code-manipulating thing...it was just an EM pulse being generated by his body. The only thing that might prove the opposing theory, I think, is the whole Agent Smith in the real world scenario (which very few people seem to be discussing right now).

Agent Smith, now there is a character that the Wachowski Brothers has improved upon.

I do not want to get into any detain about computer programming and stuff, but here what I have understood from the movie.

Since everything deals with computers in the movie, these three concepts made sense to me.

1)Virus(I am not writing anything about this since everyone knows what it is).

2)Worm program: The Wachowski Brothers have used this concept well in the movie as they made Agent Smith capable of multipling into many by infecting various programs. Remember, a normal human(a human that is born, not bred or grown) cannot enter the Matrix. Why? Because he or she does not have any implants or chips in thier body, while Neo and the others were bred or grown. Because of this Neo can log in and log out of the Matrix, and they have micro computer attached to their brain. And therefore they can be infected.

3)The Trojan Horse: Any old school computer programmer(also Greek Myth, or is it Roman Myth student) will know how the idea of Trojan Horse came about. We all know that one human is infected by Agent Smith. And this particular human is supposed to have caused the slaughter that we came to know about near the end of the movie. The thing is, no one Zion knows he is infected by Agent Smith. In Greek or Roman Mythology, in the battle of Troy, a Trojan Horse was used to capture the enemy palace. A Trojan Horse was giant wooden horse that was left outside the enemy gates as a 'gift'. The enemies rolled or took the horse beyond their gates. What the enemies did not realize was that there was a hidden compartment in the horse which was occupied by the Trojan soldiers. And at night time, the Trojan soldiers came out from their 'hiding', killed all the soldiers guarding the gates, and so on and so forth. And thus the Trojan soldiers won the battle.

During the late seventies, and eighties(do not know about know) a hidden program was made in a program software to prevent piracy. This program was also known a 'Trojan horse'. I cannot explain more about this cause I do not remember more.

If anyone out there can clarify more on this, PLEASE DO!!

Hope I was not being too vague.

@ledbetter: i think there were other "ones" cos if you see when the scene with MEROVINGIAN he always refers and compares NEO with his antecesors (the other ones) . and when they are about t fight he just tells him something like i survived your antecesors and i can survive too. sorry if im wrong i happen to have seen the movie only once and as english aint my natal language i may be wrong

@becki: im sure that if you count the number of agents Neo was fighting to theyll be..... :)

the matrix in a matrix theory does explain how neo stops the squidys at the end. BUT in the animatrix: second rennaisance part 2. we see therobots constructing the matrix, the very matrix neo escaped from! no mention of a sub matrix.

Posted by: andy
June 9, 2003 11:17 AM

"I only have one major query with reloaded and that is, who built Zion? Could it have been built in a hundred years? Does anyone have an explanation?"

Answer: Zion is still within the matrix. Therefore, it was not built but written.

Posted by: Ace Ventura
June 9, 2003 02:32 AM

"One question, why is he on floor 101?"

Answer: 101 (the One on One) i.e. the One meets the One.

---

So... when neo falls into a comma at the end of Reloaded, he has obviously woken up in the "real" real world.

But... what is the "real" real world like? Why would it be anything like the zion world? Remember: this is science fiction. The whole history of the world (i.e. the second renassance) could be a fabricated by the machines.

It makes you think, doesnt it :D

I dont know if you guys have noticed it, but The Matrix Reloaded is filled with references to Freemasonry/Knights Templar. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about?

Still have these questions:
1. Could it have been the EMP from the other ship, and not Neo, which destroyed the sentinals at the end of the Reloaded? Maybe Neo just got caught in the fire.
2. Smith's taking control of a human mind in the physical world is not beyond belief. Could that explain why a human is being influenced by Smith?
I still have a hard time believing that "Zion" must necessarily be another type of matrix. Until it is revealed to us, we are free to speculate--which is a form of control your mind has been experiencing.....

Thats some sophisticated analysis dude...is that like a full time job? Cause if it isn't, you are very talented in your hobbies...either way, i envy your ability to interpret and analyse one of the most interesting movies of all time...

Some people that i have spoken to about the movie are contemplating that the matrix may be within a matrix. Remember the scene when Neo is about to board the ship to meet the Oracle, when his fanatic hands him the spoon we saw in part 1. "Remember, it is not the spoon that bends, but yourself".

The spoon is all bent and marked. Maybe there is a hint there that the spoon can be bent outside the matrix? Maybe there is a hint when Neo saves the crew at the end from the sentinals, that it is possible to use ones powers outside the matrix too.

Looking at it like this makes it quite possible, we have a matrix within a matrix.

In response to the common misconception that the Merovingian is not a previous "one"...

I originally agreed with you but the more I think about it the more it seems a possibility, here's why:

1) If he was the first "one" he would not necessarily have needed to enter the source because the first Matrix was a "collossal failure." The pattern/relationship of "The One" and the matrix had yet to be established, and was sytumbled upon later by the Oracle.

2) Conversely, If he did enter the source, it would allow "a temporary dissemination of the code [he] carries," potentially meaning he would become apart of the matrix or possibly a program himself. Yeah, I know this is a stretch but Im just playing devil's advocate anyway.

3) The Merovingian is referred to as "one the most powerful," yet we see none of his powers - he only uses his henchmen. perhaps this is because his powers are similar to Neo's, a potential giveaway as to who he really is? Again, this is only speculation but these factors seem to purposely allow for the Merovingian to stage a fight with Neo in Revolution.

I really hate to think that I could be more creative than the Wachowskis so Im pretty sure that theyve got something up their sleeve none of us could possibly anticipate, similar to the way Reloaded blew our minds.

I agree with you del.

The Merovingian says something along the lines of...

"I have survived your predecesors and I will survive you".

Many people believe that this comment is concrete evidence that he is not 'a one'.

I disagree. What if he was the 1st 'the one', was misguided by the Oricle, and is now stuck in the 'control loop'.

He is bitter because he sees no way out. His only priority is pleasuring himself. His powers make him feel superior, and he does not want to share (or be challanged for) that power.

just a quick question about the first matrix film.....if tank uploaded all those training programs about martial arts and weapons into neos brain then why when the gang is sneaking down the wall to escape the agents searching the building does neo fire the pistol so poorly when morpheus is pulled through.

good day to you all

Loose ends:

Exposition of the Lok - Niobe - Morpheus triangle.

The Kid who wants to join the crew of the Neb (perhaps repaying the debt he owes Neo?)

How Smith enters the Real World, and how Neo maintains an interface between the Matrix and the RW (not to mention an explanation of Smith's replication abilities).

The role of the Merovingian and Persephone.

The role of the Protector (the oriental guy who "protects that which is most valuable" and who first shows Neo through the back corridors).

The fate of Zion.

The fate of the Matrix.

The conflict between Neo and Smith.

Presumably, the ultimate fate of the human race, and whether or not AI triumphs over actual intelligence in this cybersphere. Further, presumably with the role of love as trump card over rules & rationality, vis-a-vis the relationship between Trinity & Neo.

Most of this stuff will probably have to play out in Revolutions. Now, just from a practical storytelling standpoint, how would you add "a world outside the dual matrices" to this mix, and still relate/unwind/conclude everything within 3 hours? I don't think it can happen.

one thing: merovignian cant be a past "one". as the oracle told neo, he is a "dangerous program".

another thing. Why morpheous tells neo that the profecy didnt happend. he says that when the One would reach the source the war should be over, but the war hasnt finished. how can Neo say that the profecy aint truth because the war isnt over IF HE NEVER REALLY WENT TO THE SOURCE!!! HE PICKED THE OTHER DOOR.

Another thing that i think (just came to me, i dont belive its truth): the oracle isnt on the humans side, she is a program created to control the destiny of an anomaly that the architect hastnt been able to eliminate. so you cant eliminate an anomaly what about controling it. so all the profecy thing is a way to control the One. but that control is over when Neo brings trinity back to live. when the architect told neo about trinity he says "An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it." So he wanted Neo to piick the door on the right (i dont know why.) but he thought that trinity would die because of the shot.

Just thoughts... lets wait 4 revolutions-

"Yes, it’s a cliffhanger, but so are The Empire Strikes Back and The Two Towers. It's a "trilogy". Deal with it"

yes The Empire Strikes Back and The Two Towers are cliffhangers, but theres one problem with your statement,and i can only speak of Empire because i havent seen TTT, but at least Empire while being a cliffhanger was a complete movie.

Reloaded was good, but it was one longass 1/2 movie.

well, at the end there is something eerie. xion is not real but also a dream world. why? cos, the oracle, a programme can prophocise on the real world. agent smith who is a computer programme is in the real world & neo stops the sentinels in the real world. anything wrong????

Jco,

Trinity DID die. Don't forget.. Neo shocked her heart.

The Architect didn't seem to bothered when Neo went to the left door, so perhaps that was the choice the Architect knew he'd make. Besides, Trinity would have died either way.

And wasn't Neo IN the source??? i.e., where the architect was? He DID make it to the Source, afterall (I think lol) What's the Source?

Anyway, if anyone has seen previews of the Matrix Revolution, can you give a quick play by play??? ( http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/m/matrix3.php )

Also, what does the Animatrix explain about Reloaded?

Thanks!

"The Kid who wants to join the crew of the Neb (perhaps repaying the debt he owes Neo?)"

Watch the Animatrix. There is an episode about 'the kid'.

"How Smith enters the Real World"

It's not the real world. It is still within the matrix.

"and how Neo maintains an interface between the Matrix and the RW (not to mention an explanation of Smith's replication abilities)"

See above ^

"The role of the Merovingian"

He's a previous 'the one' (I think). He is very powerfull. He was introduced in Reloaded so his character can have a huge showdown with neo in the next film.

"The role of the Protector (the oriental guy who "protects that which is most valuable" and who first shows Neo through the back corridors)"

To protect 'the one', he is a program.

"The fate of Zion."

Zion does not exist, it therefore has no fate.

"The fate of the Matrix."

"The conflict between Neo and Smith."

We will see ;)

"one thing: merovignian cant be a past "one". as the oracle told neo, he is a "dangerous program""

Why do you believe the oracle? She is another control system designed to mislead neo into the 'control loop'.

"IF HE NEVER REALLY WENT TO THE SOURCE!!! HE PICKED THE OTHER DOOR."

Lets be fair to mopheus, he doesnt know that neo didnt go to the source, neo never told him. Neo just said that the prophecy was a lie

"And wasn't Neo IN the source??? i.e., where the architect was? He DID make it to the Source, afterall (I think lol) What's the Source?"

I didnt see any ketchup, did you?

Ketchup?

What are you talking about?

And "the Protector" (Seraph) was protecting the Oracle, not "the One."

What was the purpose of the keymaker?

What does the Animatrix show you?

Source=ketchup (excuse the pun)

Yea the Oracle, sorry. mistake.

Keymaker, was just part of another method of control. He was designed so that only 'the one' could goto the source.

The Animatrix has an episode about 'that annoying kid' and how he free'd himself from the matrix

How on earth can you assert that agent smith didnt come out of the Matrix into the real world? How are you saying it's still in the matrix? What the fuck did I miss?
And the Merovingian could POSSIBLY be a previous "one." When the one enters the source it allows a "temporary dissemination of the code he carries." Sounds like he becomes part of the matrix (or possibly a program) to me...

nevermind what i just said, this guy has it down. eat a Deeyaack!
thanks to neonova:
"the matrix revealed if you guys must know.... 1) the matrix that is introduced to us is actually a matrix program running inside a "greater matrix" that includes zion. this is how the machine's are controlling "the anomaly" or neo and the other humans in zion. the architect thinks that this system controls 100% of the human anomalies. the only two "anomalies" or things that went wrong to which the architect hasn't accounted for is a) agent smith's virus like abilities and his hatred of the matrix and b) neo taking the left door going back to the matrix. proof of this is 1) smith's ability to transfer himself to the zion world. 2) neo's ability to kill the sentinels in the zion world. 3) it is only logical. they have witnessed several "one's", and must have been able to derive a counter to this threat. just think, "they" need zion because it stores all of the "bad apples" or anomalies ... but why not store the anomalies in a self-contained "greater" matrix so their (the machine's) survival never is at risk. 2) the oracle is not on the side of the humans. she is just a program that can observe patterns and understand human behavior so well that she can appear to be "seeing" the future. she can't see the future; she can only predict what might happen from her vast knowledge of human patterns and behaviour. that is why she could only say that "neo has the gift, but he is waiting for something." she never really predicts anything. when she tells morpheous that he will find the one she just knew that morpheus had the right personality and ability and faith to find "the one", who appears to also have a recognizable pattern of behaviour. the oracle's job is to help the humans find "the one". she is not on the side of humanity but she is meant to make humans believe she is. she is just part of the machine's system of control. proof of this comes from what the architect says about her, and that she tells neo that to save zion he must go to the "main frame" room of light and we know that that room was just another a system of controlling the humans. in machine terms, the oracle's purpose is to find "the one", and direct him into the "control loop". personally, i think that neo should "delete" her. 4) the merovingian is probably the first "the one" who decided on taking the right door into the source code. now the merovingian is bitter, lost all faith and has become hedonistic. all he cares about is pleasure because he sees no point to life except pleasure because he can't see past the control choice that the machine's have created. proof that he was once "the one" are as follows: 1) history or myth of his name "merovingian". look it up. briefly it says that jesus didn't die on the cross but actually left the middle east and settled in france somewhere. 2) he knows the predicament of "the one" and thinks that there is no way out of the "reloaded" loop, hence his pessimistic philosophy. 3) when morpheus, trinity & neo get off the elevator on the floor where the merovingian is the floor number is 101. the number 101 is a palindrome and probably symbolizes "the one" meeting "the one". it can't be coincidence. 5) neo's comma. when neo enters the coma after killing the sentinels in the zion matrix world, he actually has woken up from the matrix and is now in the real real world, do you follow? on top of this there is a whole other discussion on the philosophy and statement that these movies are trying to convey. i love the diverse discussion in this movie of the nature of life by all the different characters. it is just brilliant! any questions??? -neonova"

bizang, bizitches.

How can you be so sure that he Merovingian is the first "the One?" Is he human...?

lol @ all the speculation.. why can't any of us just wait for the Revolution to get the "real" answers?

First off, I agree with Crapshoot. There was an excellent philosophical evaluation of The Matrix Reloaded over on the www.imdb.com boards that basically explained philsophically (dealing with free will and such) your conclusion (as well as mine).

Second, the Matrix within another Matrix theory is bunk for various reasons. For one thing, to explain that and everything else in another 2.5 hours is ludicrous. Come on, I'm all for waxing intellectual about movies like this (and the Matrix movies, IMO, deserve it more than another other movie, and I mean that), but be real about it. Someone earlier said not only would it be a rush job, but it would be insanely stupid and a waste of everyone's $14 (probably more) that people have paid to see the last 2 movies.

Third, the mysteries that have led to the Matrix within theories have much cooler explanations by much more creative people out there. I've been soaking up all this information and hope to form my own theories (or add to those I already hold, more to the point), and they are all so much better, more organized, and not as frickin' obvious as the Matrix within theories.

Damn, I just thought of another theory:

Suppose that Neo is just a program, just another tool of the Matrix. An unwitting one, sure, and one that will eventually become their downfall, but what if Neo is simply another program?

I say this because of one thing only, setting aside everything that the Architect told him. I read that one of the theories of Neo's affecting the Sentinels is that it was just the EMP pulse of the Hammer, the ship that picked them up. IF NEO IS JUST ANOTHER PROGRAM, IT WOULD HAVE AFFECTED HIM IN THE VERY SAME WAY, WOULDN'T IT??? I.E. PUTTING HIM INTO A COMA?

Just a thought I had.

Crapshoot.

I assume that you agree that Zion is still within the matrix. Yes?

Well, it is possible (yet unlikely) that neo is a program.

Why would the EMP pulse effect him? EMP stands for Electro-magnetic pulse. i.e. it disables electric things. A program is written in software.

So, I saw Matrix Reload and, it was fantastic. I saw it twice and I understand a little about what is presenting us there. About how could Neo stop the machines "outside" the matrix is simple. He, their are not "outside" the Matrix it's stil rulling them. The Outside is another reality created by the machines to keep them controlled.

I know that it is a shame but it's real. And they think they are free but they are not. And just think it carefully if they were set free by Neo or Oracle or any Good or aything.
the world is destroyed and they couln't survive.

And I realized about something more interesting Did you see all the machines that were inside Zion? or the ships?
Where they could get them if they were set free with the education of the XX century . Where all those machines come from?? how they developed a industy capable to construct and maintein that city.

What the hell was Trinity thinking when she jumped out that window?

The Brothers: "We now have a ridiculous amount of money to spend on the sequels to the Matrix, Carrie.... jump out of that window"
Carrie: "Um..... Alright, but only if you pay me 20m or so..."

A little off-topic, but anyways...

If you like the matrix, then you must see/ buy the film Dark City.

It is absoultely brilliant, and the matrix has ripped a lot off it.

"If you like the matrix, then you must see/ buy the film Dark City."

Hell Yeah. I wrote a compare/contrast paper on the very same thing this past semester.

interesting stuff guys....

sorry to break it to you but i have seen revolutions already. i have my sources and contacts. the matrix in a matrix theory is true but they also tie in something very ingenious to make the 2 previous films just as important as revolutions.

sorry if this spoils it for you

dark horse

Could the computers have killed the sentinels because they needed Neo for re-insertion into the source, believing that this would still be possible even though Neo had rejected their plan.

it's a possibility! However neo's, "somethings different" line kinda kills that theory. If it was the computers, then he would feel nothing.

Also, dark horse, if you have seen the 3rd film (which I very much doubt), then please keep it to yourself. The whole point in the 6-month gap is to keep us (the audience) speculating. So... be a nice chap and tell me that you were lieing *wink wink*

"sorry to break it to you but i have seen revolutions already. i have my sources and contacts. the matrix in a matrix theory is true but they also tie in something very ingenious to make the 2 previous films just as important as revolutions."

Uh-huh, I saw it too. They were giving copies of it away at Burger King with every purchase of an oreo cheesecake.

You write: "If the Merovingian is a previous "One", that means he didn’t return to the source and the Matrix should have fallen apart."

Dumb nonsense it est. If the Meronvingian returned to the source he inserts his code but he does not die. He has to go and settle in Zion together with 16 + 7 others as the architect tells Neo. Why sould the Merovingian not return to the Matrix (upload himself with all his reality-bending the-one-features)

For a more serious discussion visit:

http://i-took-the-red-pill.com/

hello

no....i stole it out the back of a van - HAHA FUCK YOU FAT WICHOWSKI GEEKS!

bye bye

Listen up.

1. ZION. The letters contain a "One and a Zero" Guess what that means? Binary? lots of Zero's and ones referenced in both Matrix movies - don't you think?

2. The Merovingian was after love just like Persephany. But he was looking at love as a "cause and effect" and therefore was trying to create it with his desert. Parsephany, on the other hand, was trying to sample "true love" which is what everyone in the movie is really after.
Also, the Merovingian could have been a previous ONE - who got rid of his body and now lives as code, as a program in the Matrix. The "Other One's" who have come before have not been able to remove him from the Matrix.

3. Agent Smith is also part of the "Anomoly" remember this is the first time - so it seems that a program has exited from the matrix and entered a human body - Bane.

I can't wait till Revolutions!

Nice ideas.

the 'IO' in Zion could stand for I/O (In, Out).

Any ideas?!

Look guys...

1) All this talk about the Merovingian being a previous One is rubbish. It doesn't make sense, coz the Merovingian talks to Neo about how he's survived Neo's predecessors. But if he was a the One at some time, doesn't that make him a predecessor? He is a program... just like the Oracle tells Neo, who is after power, and who happens to have the Keymaker in his control. So No! He is not another one.

2)The theory of matrix within a matrix is becoming more unlikely. Neo, when he leaves the Architect, realises that he still has that 'anomoly code' inside of him, which he should have disseminated into the source. Neo therefore has a special connection with the machines which enables him to stop the squidys at the end. Previous Ones have lost this code. In part3, we can expect to see Neo remotely access the Matrix, from anywhere and fight machines in the real world and within.

3)As for Zion... and those people suggesting its another matrix or matrix within a matrix. Complete rubbish. It is a dumping ground for humans (0.1%)that may be disruptive to the matrix. Thats all.

4)We can expect to see Neo die in the 3rd movie. The first is the birth, the second the life, and the 3rd the death. That is what Keanu said himself. It cannot be about the matrix, coz it wasnt born in the 1st movie. But Neo was born in the first movie. He is at his best in the 2nd. And his death will save mankind.

It'll be good 2 hear everyones opinion on my theories.

POSSIBLE SPOILER!!!!

The original Matrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-18-98".

The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"... 19 months have passed! A year and 7 months

If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after 2-18-98 at most).

Significant? Yes; I propose that Reloaded and Revolutions (which we know occur one after another), take place between 2-18-98 and 9-18-99. Here's why:

Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in Reloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

We also know the W brothers don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of the Matrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in the Matrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between M1 and M2? he didn't, that last scene in M1 occurs after Revolutions!

Finally, at the end of M1, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says, "Something is different, I can FEEL them now".

One more thing. A game directed by the W brothers called Matrix online is due in '04 and the timeframe takes place after Revolutions... and the matrix is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MWAM, they don't destroy the Matrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of Revolutions!

Upon entering the source, Neo is now always connected to the matrix and therefore connected to the machines. He alluded to this when he said it felt different. When he fell into his "coma" he was in fact entering Matrix. He no longer needs to be plugged in to enter the matrix, nor does he need an "exit" to leave.

Out of curiosity, why would the Architect need Neo to choose to restart the Matrix if the machines already breed humans themselves? Presumably they would just harvest a new generation and insert them into a new Matrix, right?

Diversification (not putting your eggs in one basket) is an obvious hedge to the Matrix problem. Why would the machines not just have a hundred diferent matrices for certain sets of humans? That way, the failure of one is easily dealt with while the other 99 run on. This would eliminate the potential for system collapse. Any good AI programming should have produced that solution....

I think the philosophical aspects of the movie are a bit of a mish-mash.

The imagery and symbolism are all mixed up. First of all, Zion is the home place, but one of the first destroyers of the first Zion was Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonian king who enslaved the Jews.

But then the whole idea of the female oracle and male architect is basic a gnostic principle.

However, the Merovingian is a spanner in the works again. Neo and Trinity are akin to the Jesus and Mary Magdalene and fit nicely with the Gnostic ideas, but the Merovingian line were a family of Kings of early France who claimed blood descent from Jesus. The last of them, Dagobert II was murdered, with the consent of the pope by the Charlemagne faction before Charlemagne went on to become the first Holy Roman Emperor.
As such, the Merovingian would appear to be a symbol of the disenfranchised but rightful heir, the so called "once and future king" as in Arthurian Legend.

And where the Greek idea of Persephone fits into all that is beyond me. Persephone is an unwilling captive of the king of the underworld. She is not avaricious, or jealous and so how the film's Persephone fits with the Merovingian I don't know.

The underlying Gnostic ideas and references are constant. The male and female principles expressing the duality of life and divinity are common in the film, but the addition of other incongruous references breaks down the uniformity of the symbolism and just makes it confusing. Like a bad conspiracy theory that includes everyone from the Freemasons to Johnson & Johnson and the Post Office.

I agree with u Sebi.

That is a very clever suggestions... i watched the start and end of the 1st matrix, and realised the dates.

This concurs with what Morpheus says in the movie also:

"We have freed more minds in the last 6 months than we had in the last 6 years"

It has been 6 months since the 1st matrix.

Therefore somehwere in revolutions we should see the end of matrix1, where Neo makes the telephone call, which should be a year and 7 months from matrix1.

I think revolutions will be about rescuing the plugged humans, where Neo can access the matrix remotely... again like u said Sebi.

Neo is not in a coma... he is in the matrix.

WOW!!! That is a spoiler!!!

Finally, logic that can be both proven and understood without trying to confuse people. Definately re-title this thread! This is the best spoiler on the boards, period.

Hey, maybe you could call it that: "The best spoiler, period."

It makes perfect sense. It is the Architect who Neo is talking to at the end of M1 when he says "I can feel you now, you are scared". and another clue is that during the trace at the end of M1, Neo causes a 'System Failure'...

if there was a system failure, the matrix would not be functioning, therefore no need 4 part 2.

but... there is a m2, and m3 coz this scene comes at the end of revoultions.

pure genius Sebi. wish i coulda sussed this one out myself... damn.

Well done

This is rather trivial, but about that Merovingian and his aphrodisiac cake...

The girl eats the cake, gets horny (sorry for being blunt), runs off to the ladies' room (as you see later in the background).

Later, after his wife shoots the first henchman, she tells the second one, "He's in the ladies' room." Probably taking advantage of the poor girl... his wife knows him too well.

Then after that we have the little "I'm leaving you" scene between Mr. Big-Time Player and his annoyed wife. Yeh, seems pretty logical to me.

But it's probably still trivial... :\

More spoilers (from The Matrix game)
The hour of video throughout the "Enter the Matrix" computer game which was written/directed by the Wachowskis and filmed concurrently with the two movies, contains major spoilers for "Revolutions" and some backstory for "Reloaded".

"The Oracle (played by an actress named Mary Alice, due to Gloria Foster's death; I assume this means that Mary Alice will play the Oracle in Revolutions, as well) states that a "special child" who will "change the world" is the child of two programs similar to herself. If she means Neo, this would suggest that Neo is a program and thus that Zion is still part of the Matrix. The Oracle says the two programs betrayed her for their love by giving Merovingian (the French information-collector guy, played by Lambert Wilson) her termination key. The Oracle allowed this because she wanted the programs to have their special child.

A hobo with longish blond hair who also appears in the Revolutions trailer has a conversation with Niobe (Jada Pinket-Smith) in which he reveals that the Zion before this one "only lasted 72 hours". Niobe volunteered to be the second ship to enter the Matrix and contact the Nebuchadnezzar because her boyfriend, Command Lock revealed to her that he had arranged for her ship, the Logos, to be the only one not to participate in the defense of Zion, in order to protect her, and she was angry. At the end of the events of Reloaded, Niobi and Ghost's hovercraft (Logos) has crashed in an uncharted underground area and they do not know how they will be found and rescued".

thanks to: http://keanuweb.com/credits/movie.matrix3.stories.html

did anyone else notice that there was a vampire movie playing when Persephone shot one of her husband's henchmen with a silver bullet? Hmm...

Just another thought about the Matrix-within-a-Matrix idea. Note the parity of the symbolism of the spoon. Inside the first Matrix, the kid guru observes that there is no spoon. In Reloaded, when "the kid" gives Neo the spoon in Zion, he says, "they said you'd understand". My theory (as crackpot as it may be): There is no spoon in the "real world", either, since it's just another Matrix.

What about Trinity as mother of the Matrix ? is she not experiencing human love ? maybe she and Neo are programs to control the "Freed" minds and they are unaware and their special child will be born of love and not a "written" program, a true human-like simulation ? Remember Dekkard in Blade Runner, the replicant hunter who was big time hinted at to also be a special replicant, unaware, thought he was human. a lot of the other theories plausible too. My brain hurts thinking of all the possibilites. Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Here are my thoughts:

I think what happened to Neo at the end of Reloaded is that when he enters the machine mainfame, he "evolves" and gains the ability to exist within and without the Matrix simultaneously, as he is permanently connected to the Source. This connection explains his ability to sense, control and shut down the sentinels in the real world - he does it through the Matrix (the same way the agents control the sentinels in the first film). You also find out in Enter the Matrix (ETM) that Neo's mind was separated from his body at the end of Reloaded. This separation would normally kill a human (e.g. Apoc and Switch, and presumably Neo in the first movie if he didn't return before the Neb set off the EMP).

However, Neo is not dead, even though his mind is separated from his body, and it appears from the Revolutions trailer that he wakes up on the ground in a subway station next to some crazy guy. In ETM, the Oracle also tells Niobe that Trinity can rescue Neo, though she will need to go "through hell" to do it. I also learned online (and from the trailer) that at the beginning of Revolutions, Trinity, Seraph (Oracle's guardian) and Morpheus go to "Club Hell" to rescue Neo from the Merovingian. I guess the Merovingian either captures Neo in the subway, or there's no way out of the subway and only the Merovingian, as a "trafficker of information", knows where Neo is.

Thus, I don't think Zion is a second matrix for that reason (though I suppose there could be a plot twist). Also, the agents/machines are trying to hack into the Zion mainframe in the first movie (remember the interrogation of Morpheus), which indicates that Zion is out of their control (and thus needs to be physically destroyed).

How Neo becomes the One and is sent to the Source is very confusing. I don't think Neo is the One at first, as the Oracle tells him so. (And I don't think the programs lie.) He just has incredible, inherent prowess within the Matrix, and can even move like the agents - but he still gets killed by Smith (and is not the One at that point). I think Neo only becomes the One when Trinity tells him she loves him. This triggers the "One" program inside him, which revives/reboots his Matrix/mental self, and brings his body back to life (which may have been put into him by the Oracle when she gave him a cookie - wild speculation, but remember the Merovingian and the cake). And I think the One program explains why he can "see the future" and can see the Source (and Trinity's "death") in Reloaded. Apparently, "choice" causes the anomaly, so "choice" somehow creates the One or activates the One program? Thoughts?

I also think there are different factions in the machine world, such as those who think humans are necessary for machines to understand "free will" and "choice" and therefore evolve (the "Oracle"), and those who think humans are only necessary as a power supply, and understanding humans is only necessary insofar as the Matrix needs to be believable in order for humans to "choose" to accept it (the "Architect").

Smith is an example of the machines evolving (i.e. he acts more human, he gets angry in the original movie), but machines don't really know what to do when they become "free" from their programming. When Smith becomes "free" in Reloaded, he doesn't know what to do with "free will" and "choice", a concept alien to machines. Hence, he doesn't understand it, and he thinks he has no purpose, as he is no longer an "agent of the system". In the essay "On Nihilism" (which Neo has torn out of a book in the first movie to store pirated software), nihilism (i.e. thinking that nothing has meaning or purpose) is infectious, destructive and allows those in power to continue controlling those who are not truly aware of what is going on and do not care. Smith, I think, is supposed to represent nihilism, thus the similarity to a virus (and this allusion, of course, dovetails with Smith saying humans are a virus in the first movie). On a side note, I bet Smith takes over everybody in the Matrix by the end of Revolutions before Neo fights him.

I think the connection between Smith and Neo is that, with both of them, humans and machines/programs are connected. Neo copies part of himself onto Smith and "frees him", and Smith kills Neo in the Matrix which resulted in Neo becoming "the One", and this transformation linked Neo to the machine world because he can manipulate the Matrix.

The Merovingian is also an important character, but I'm not truly sure of his role yet. He is an old and very powerful program that chose exile (i.e. his program was slated for deletion because it "broke down or better program was designed to replace him"), and now has learned to hide in and manipulate (or hack) the Matrix to his own ends. Many exiles gather to him for protection. In the movie, the exiles, aside from the Keymaker and the Oracle, are all ghosts (Twins), vampires (Persephone) or werewolves (Cain and Abel, you learn their names from ETM). These programs are from older versions of the Matrix. Somehow, they survive the Matrix when it is "rebooted."

He knows Neo's purpose, but doesn't want Neo to reach the Source. He captures the Keymaker in an attempt to prevent this. In ETM, the Oracle tells Ghost that the Merovingian terminated the Oracle's "original shell" for assisting Neo (though this, of course, was probably to the story because the original actress died). (She also says that two programs sold her out by giving her termination code to the Merovingian - in exchange, the Merovingian let their "special child" live. Who the special child is, or who the two programs were, is open to debate. Perhaps Seraph? After all, he's in gold code in Reloaded and tells the Oracle in ETM "I will always be indebted to you.")

Persephone samples emotion from humans ("emotional vampire" according to the actress), and she desires to sample love. I think she assists Neo and Trinity because they are in love (which she senses) and they allow her, even for just a second, to experience what that feels like. In ETM, she assists Ghost and Niobe after they let her kiss them. Therefore, she is willing to allow Neo to reach the Source and change the Matrix so that machines can some-day also learn to love. (Could be totally wrong.)

Thoughts?

To anyone who thinks Neo is outside the matrix...........He's not, isn't it obvious?!

And don't start thinking that there must have been something he did the last time he went in which enabled the machines to trick him to stay in it. Neo has never left the matrix and hopefully if the Wachowski Brothers do the right thing he never will, raising questions of reality and existance. If Neo never escapes the matrix, whats the point in having left the first world where he could have lived his life normally.

Anyway on with the Neo still in the Matrix, Neo is not drained by using his powers outside the matrix, he's rejecting being in the matrix. His waking up outside the zion layer of the matrix and maybe is finally in the outside world or is maybe not.

I suspect that the story will go as follows in the final part; Neo finally gets to the true outside world(or maybe not!) and realises that he's almost the only bloke around(baring a few humans still left); the Virus Smith is starting to destroy the system and hence is risking destroying every single living being linked up to the matrix for its power source(please note that the humans in the matrix are batteries, or as i like to say Cells[please note the double use of this word]. In the matrix agent smith is using other people to multiply, in real life virus' use cells in our body to multiply!); the head computer bloke said "There are acceptable levels for shared existance.....blar blar blar"(he talks about how humans and machines both need each other, which the old man in Zion does too), in the third part the computers will call and Neo to help save the matrix, at first Neo will say(why should i bother) and then the computers will point out that everyone linked to the matrix will die as Smith expands; Neo saves the day, Yay!

Also be warned, Trinity is not such an inocent character.

Please also note the religious context used in the film; God, Jesus, the holy Goat(joke not typo!). The Head computer bloke(sorry can't spell archietect?!) is God, white room, big white beard, see's everyones emotions from every angle, knows everything; Neo is Jesus, the saviour, walking the path of a human, seeing what it is truely like and hopefully saving everyone; and lastly we need to complete the Holy Trinity, i wonder who complete's it?! Trinity maybe!

as far as other "Ones" go Neo is the only one i'm certain.

And lastly the proof of the Matrix within a Matrix idea;
In the convosation with the Architect, it is stated what the construct of the matrix was based on. Firstly perfection(garden of eden), then they tried different things(including what the Architect says is the humans recent and violant history(ie now!) but then he says thats none of them worked so they ended up creating a what is around them now.

The Architect clearly points out that he used the recent history of humans as a construct but that it didn't work!!!!!!!!!! This means that the recent history setting that we see as the matrix can't be the only thing to it. Look at the script and you'll see it. The other place is still the matrix, do you really think that WB would let some piece of code be the reason neo can use his powers outside the matrix? not everyone is a computer geek let alone able to understand anything about coding. Another lvl to the matrix is concieveable to everyone and as i said before i hope there are endless levels just to prove that what they are doing is infact pointless and that all the humans could have lived a free life in the central core if they hadn't tried to escape, if there were no people outside the first level then there would be no need for agents hence everyone would be free to do what they want and not be taken over by agent programs.

Anyway my work here is done,

Bye

You're soooooo right! These ARE all symbolics. The funniest part is that they might be writing/\mazing the real realities future plot, as reality is already being written down for ages by humans, bend the spoon!

This is very well-written. I approve highly. I am also sick of stupid people in regard to this movie - MWAMers who say that Neo stopping sentinels is just like Neo stoppign bullets, idiots who believe any time someone comes up with a 'scriptment', people who couldn't understand the philosophy.

Morons. At least someone's smart out there!

To the people who think that Neo is using his powers against the machine as "The One" outside of the Matrix, he was not able to destroy the machines because of his so called "one powers" but he now has a connection with agent smith and that is how he was able to defeat those machines, thogh he passed out!

"Misconception IV: The Merovingian’s "Spanish Fly" cake was pointless"

your explanation is way too far-fetched. It's just to show neo & co. how 'out of control' humans really are, and to show that choice is an illusion created between those with power, and those without. The girl who has an orgasm is completely powerless to stop it, thus, morpheus' statement "everything begins with a choice" is proven wrong. Or not, because I think that the girl still had the choice to EAT the cake, or not. Also, the merovingian made the 'choice' to send the girl that cake. Anyhoo, let's not get into that. No matter how you look at it, it was just something the merovingian used to explain his theory of causality and prove morpheus wrong.

The rest of your story made good sense though, and those common misconceptions are indeed pretty annoying. I understood the movie the first time I saw it (well ok, I coulnd't quite figure out what the hell the architect was blabbering about, but the second time I saw it I understood him completely).

and for the 'new' common misconception : A matrix inside a matrix (or whatever you want to call it) : Zion and the 'real world' aren't part of another 'matrix'. There is no 'other matrix'. The fact that he defeeated those machines has nothing to do with there being another matrix. Although there are several different theories on how he could actually destroy the sentinels, it's clear that it's not because he's still 'the one' outside of the matrix (or inside 'another' matrix). If it was indeed like that, wouldn't that make the movie way too corny, and to complex? I mean, if there's a matrix in a matrix, then why not a matrix in a matrix in a matrix in a matrix? It could go on forever, and then human beings would never be freed. It just doesn't make any sense. So there...!

I am one of the critics of this movie, and let me say it is NOT because I didn't "get it"...I got it...I'd say that I got most of the references, the layers and layers of references, and I was wearied by the amount of them! I think the Matrix Brothers should read some Hemingway before they attempt any more movies...please, less is more. My other gripe with this movie, and with Scott Manning, is that the orgy scene IS an orgy...it is an organic, sumptuous, rhythmic, baccanalia of writhing bodies...if that ISN'T an orgy, please tell me what IS? AND, for the record, I never read nor heard of the Time article...I figured out this was an orgy all on my own. As to the spanish fly cake....puhleez, this same message could have been done so much better. The amount of sex and sexual images in this movie makes it one I will not show my children...and that's a shame. The first movie was a fantastic hero's quest of MYTHIC proportions, and we've enjoyed watching it together over and over again.

Scott, please don't assume that because someone disagrees with you about this movie...or anything else in life....that that makes them less intelligent than you and that that means they "don't get it"....

The Zion dance party is just what it is : DANCING! The fact that people are 'rubbing' their bodies against each-other, and some have see-through clothing on, doesn't make it an ORGY...there isn't any sexual stuff going on anywhere, for as far as I could see. Have you ever seen video-clips of new (rap)artists on music channels like MTV or so? If you see a bunch of people dancing in a club, it's almost similar to this (except it's less muddy and sweaty, and it's not in slow-motion).

fuck you all, matrix geeeks!

If we're matrix geeks, then what the hell are you doing at this site, eh?

To the bloke blabbing about neo destroying the sentinals in the real world it's not a matrix in the matrix it's a fake real world in the matrix he doesn't know it though thus zion isn't destroyed because it was only wrecked in the fake real world and smith has infect a human mind he is in a human head at the begining when he gets the guy and goes down the phone line.

Smith now like neo can get in the real world.

"it's a fake real world in the matrix"

no...it's actually the REAL world and it's outside the matrix...
You can choose to believe me, or not...As soon as the third movie is released you'll see that i'm right.

ok first of all whoever here thinks that the real world is still in the matrix is a complete idiot, i mean did u listen to wat the architecht said at all. ok he said that the prophecy of the "one" was all just a fake, right, but the oracle said, "for what its worth, you have made a beleiver out of me." then the architecht also said that she is the mother of the matrix if he is the father, now tell me why she would believe, if it is all a fake?? ill tell you, because the prophecy that they made and the one morpheus beleives in are two complete different prophecies confused as one, basically anyone in the matrix can be the "one" in the matrix as long as they come to realize that the matrix is fake, and then they will see that it is not the spoon that bends but it is only themsevles, so neway, the real one is the one who will save zion from destruction, the real one, the one morpheus prophecy is, is the one that neo will fufil, and look at neo, if u put the o at the beggining it becomes the one, and can someone explain this whole 101 thing to me, well someone who doenst think tere is matrix inside of matrix.

ok can someone explain this whole 101 thing to me and how it is relevent to anything

you're right about that real world stuff, because I also think there's absolutely NO other matrix (or world) ín the matrix. It makes no sense, and would be corny. But I'm unsure if you're right about the whole 'neo is truly the one' stuff. It is said that the one ends the war in the prophecy they talked about. But the game 'The Matrix Online' plays áfter revolutions. Which mean the matrix is still intact, and agents are still active. Which probably suggests that the war has not come to an end, since both sides are still fighting...

that 101 stuff is more or less a joke...binary code (consits of ones and zero's), the number of neo's apartment (or something like that), stuff like that...

Everyone that I've known who has been fanatically ranting and raving about a matrix within a matrix for months now is suddenly acting super pissed off.

Which can only mean that the movie doesn't validate their cherished belief.

Now I know I'm really going to like Revolutions when I see it later today.

And I'm purposefully NOT going to say "I told you so" -- because this is one of those situations where NOT saying it says it louder than I could crow.

(woo hoos!)

yup, I bet they're all kind of pissed. Been ravin' on months and months about all the 'evidence' that there is another matrix within the matrix and stuff like that...they've been converting hundreds of n00bs to their 'beliefs', and flaming thousands of other matrix fans. And now it turns out they were all wrong...

This goes out to all the 'matrix-within-matrix'-believers:

"YOU WERE ALL WRONG! AND YOU CALL YOURSELF MATRIX FANS? EH, PUNKS?"

I just had to say it...lol

Actually, My theory made a lot more sense (but no one listened), which was that the machines broadcasted some kind of signal in order to communicate with the machine capital (the mainframe, the source, whatever) and eachother. I thought neo just picked those signals up and by that was able to use his matrix-esque powers in the real world.

I know.

That's exactly what said on a couple of message boards way back when this first "How did he kill the squids??? The ONLY holy scared and correct answer is Zion is in the Matrix! It's a matrix WITHIN a matrix!!!! Anyone who disagrees with this Twilizonian, Outlimitsian cop-out -- get a clue! We know our cliches!!"

(cue Righteous Laugher from the Faithful)

Well, I'm glad.

It was a good conclusion for me for that and some other reasons. Another one being especially because they didn't give it an ending the Mighty Mouse (peace be upon Disney's name) would have condoned.

Hallelujah!

OK Here's my two cents worth (Actually 96c as I'm from Aus and that's about the exchange rate at the moment!)

The matrix has become a hybrid entity part human and part machine. As a result, not only can a human become something exceptional in the Matrix, but a machine entity can become something more in the human world (Smith)

Zion is a tool conceved by the matrix to illiminate the anomoly. The population that refuses the matrix. The interaction between the Zion and the matrix creates the One each iteration and at a critical time, the matrix draws the One to it in order to examine and better understand the anomoly. For this reason, each Matrix must start with an external control group to found the new Zion. The martix is reloaded with the alerations gleaned from the One and if all goes well, it won't be rejected, Zionists will not be able free minds and with too shallow a gene pool will eventually die out.

Here's something to bake your noodle, what if the old councilman is the previous One? With a redesigned Matrix, he won't have his power but he does have wisdom. He may have inherited Zion from the previous generation after it was sterilised.

Neo with power outside the matrix? What power specifically. He can feel the machines! Not altogether surprising. Neo must carry code regarding the martix within his brain. If it was merely part of his projected self in the Matrix, the Architect could read it as eaisly as it read his emotional responses. He wouldn't need to go through the Right door. If he carries part of the matrix with him, why not have the ability to issue shut down commands to machines in the real world? OF course he doesn't have the transmission power of a Ship, so it drains him completely. Still - useful to have if you can't find the remote.

What are the ghosts and servants that work for Merovingian? Are they humans that have died but their programs not been deleted? If so could Merovingian not be the same? Once human, now just software?

Anyway - Cool movie can't wait for Revolutions!

"an ending the Mighty Mouse (peace be upon Disney's name) would have condoned."

what exactly do you mean by that?

and...why is that again?

you all need to get a life.go read a book or draw a painting try going to school because if you all spent as much time doing something productive as you did thinking about this crap you would all be freaking doctors or lawyers. look I have seen all the movies and i thought they were cool but i am not going to spend the rest of my life trying to figure out if zion was destroyed or if there was another one. i have hobbies too but i dont let them consume all of my time. so i guess what i am saying is for all of you to stop living in a damn movie and grow up.

Regarding your statement disputing the Merovingian's origins, your analysis is fairly incomplete. Everybody else who has thought of this has heard of that line, the main argument is that he could have been reinserted into the matrix like Cipher wanted to be.