I find your line of thought in harmony for the most part with what I was thinking. Though, as you point out, we will be surprised with Revolutions and probably have to discount much of it. And the theory is only true, at least as a whole, if The Architect was telling the truth, which I have serious doubts about. I believe The Architect at the least did not tell all to Neo.

What are your thoughts on The Oracle? If she is, as The Architect said, an intuitive program working in harmony with him for the purpose of making the Matrix a more effective system to keep humans deceived and enslaved, then she is a wolf in sheeps clothing, as dangerous and as much an enemy as The Architect no matter what appearance and nature she has presented herself with. Breaks your heart doesn't it. The ole', "have a cookie" from an old lady ruse.

I like the theory that you have laided out - formalizing the information provided by the Architect. However, the main questions is why the Matrix arranges for Neo to meet the Architect who provide all that information about Matrix history to Neo. Why not just let him get to the source (door #1) without giving him an option to choose door #2. So basically, when he opens the door and walks in a room where the Architect is, would it not be much safer and more secure for the Matrix to just let him enter the code withou even knowing that he could go after Trinity instead and/or learn how the Matrix evolved. That way, the Matrix guarantees that the new cycle begins without a problem and there will Neo 7, Neo 8, Neo 9 and etc...

I like how you've all the information from the movie out. It's very clear. However, there are a few points that I disagree with you on.

The first is very minor. You mention that the machines can't understand love. The Merovingian's wife seems to, or at least it seemed that she thought she did.

The second is that I don't think the Architect is telling the whole truth. Remember the Oracle in the first and second movies; she doesn't tell the exact future as she sees it but, like Morpheus says, she is more like a guide that can show you 'the' path.

As it turns out, 'the' path is the one the machines want you to walk, not the one that will benefit Zion's cause. I think the Architect's speech is something like this; seeded with enough truth to convince Neo, and designed to lead Neo into making the choice that the machines want.

I think the Architect was very subtly playing on Neo's love of Trinity and his rebellious nature, both of which the Architect was well aware of.

The Architect made it clear to Neo that Door Number One was the obvious choice that all those who came before him made, the choice the Architect wanted him to make; the conformist's choice. Thus, Neo's rebel's nature is already urging him to Door Number Two. Then, the subtle reminder at the end that the only way to save Trinity is Door Number Two (when he said that it was the way 'back to her').

I doubt that an entity that prides itself on it's perfection would make such mistakes. So, I think the Architect wanted Neo to go back to the Matrix.

The reason for this will be revealed in Revolutions, I'm sure.

The third thing that I disagree with you on, is the reason that Neo has new powers outside of the Matrix, the powers that let him stop the sentinels.

The Architect tells Neo that his consciousness has been changed by 'the process'. We are left to assume he means the process of accessing the Architect's room. I believe that these changes made his mind a little more like a computer program, which let him disrupt the sentinels.

Of course, as you said, all these theories might be wiped away when the third movie comes out.

Damoz-On your second point above, I like what you said about the Architect knowing Neo's nature and love for Trinity. He even says it is already known, by both of them, what door Neo will take. And I believe your right about the information given to Neo. It is not the truth or whole truth, but manipulative.

On your last point, I think there is more to Neo's new power, power in the flesh. Something more of a transforming, spiritual, kind of Luke becoming a full fledged Jedi thing. This is something beyond the machines control or previous experience; something unexpected, part of Neo becoming more than any others before him even if there were truly other "Ones" before him.
This is something that will ultimately lead to victory for the humans over the Matrix. If it wasn't something beyond the past, beyond the control of the Matrix, there would be no victory. And, forgive me, but I do believe this will have a "happy ending", if for nothing else, because of what movie makers in general, with a few exceptions, go for more than anything else (money, success, popularity), especially with this type of franchise.

This is not putting down the films at all. While I appreciate the thought and form of the movie, and truly enjoy it as entertainment, and believe visually they have given us something special as well as a thoughtful film with much to talk about, with it's own world view and philosophy, it is in most ways still following a standard formula: good vs. evil, overcoming great odds, the love interest, the future and freedom of humanity, a savior or saviors (heros), man vs. machine or some powerful source or being, the discovering of power and growth or change in that to become stronger and overcome. It has a lot in common with Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, even The Terminator and other films to some extent. Nothing wrong with any of this, but I will be surprised if when the third part comes out they didn't color between the lines.

Topic 1 - Version Three

Do not forget that the Oracle (the would-be "wife" of the Architect) warned him that only 99.9% of the population would accept the program because those could not accept the choice given becuase perhaps they had "assemilated" machine-like attributes from flawed programs. Perhaps those that had seen the "ghosts" or ufos, classified by again, the Oracle, as programs that did not acheive perfection in the task given unto them.

Topic 2 - Ones and Doors

As was said by the Architect and stated in the article, "...test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level." In order for the machines to survive off of humans, the humans must be controlled, with out understanding that fact. Therefore if the One was not given a choice, he obviously would not make a choice, then perhaps regect the matrix, and cause his own, and the matrix's self-destruction. If he is given a choice, rather an illusion or a choice however, as the matrix forces him to choose what they want him to choose unconciously. In the 6th version, Neo being the One, he made the "wrong" decision in the perspective of the Architect. I believe this is because so many of the key applications of the matrix were rejected themselves, such as the Oracle, the exiled applications, and the Key Maker.

Topic 3 - Power Out of Matrix

This is a simple one: I feel that since the matrix controlls the machines, and Neo can control the matrix, then neo can control the programs running the machines in the matrix to his will.

Topic 4 - Choice and Control

Choice and Control. In another post of mine in "The Matrix: Common Misconceptions," I was commenting on how the Matrix was so complex... so solid yet incomplete... explained but unfinished... so simple yet confusing. In one instance, you could describe the movie as a complex tangle of plots, discoveries, revelations, and technology, all intertwined in a neverending war between man and machine, good against evil, light against dark. Or then again, you could descibe it as a film with one basis. Choice and Control. Deep down it is an oxymoron, as choice can not be controlled. If it is, then it is not choice it is controlled descion. Though in being in control, you must make choices about the choices of others power, or control over those whom they control.

Topic 5 - Choice and Control Part 2: The difference between man and machine

In essence, there is not one living thing that does not have the choice to control anything, down to the smallest germ, which without even a brain, can guide itself to a food source. Machines are controlled by applications, and those applications can be broken down into an incomprehensible mass of characters that don't mean a thing, and therefore can not control even themselves.

That is the difference between those living and those who operate yet have never lived.

Perhaps the machine world is not so perfect after all.

maximumbob-I really liked the distinction you have clearly drawn between man and machine and your comments on choice and control; kudos.

As far as your point 3 of Neo controlling the Matrix, and thus now the machines through the control of the programs; this could be so, and does make some sense. But we see him, while exercising great power within the Matrix, still having limits and many things he does not control about it, or it would all be over. So I am still wondering if there isn't more to it. Of course you could be right, and his power is growing, and now has reached such a level that even outside of the Matrix his power is evident and he can influence it. Interesting thoughts.

What's anyones opinion on the Oracle? Is she, as the architect told Neo, a program working with the Architect? Or is he lying about her to mislead Neo? Is she friend or foe?

I believe the Oracle is not to be trusted. She has obviously led the others to the Architect and thus has perpetuated the cycle. She is still a machine, and as such is not too interested in returning humans to power as the Second Renaissance makes very clear.

My analysis: Friendly Foe

Just an idea, but maybe the Matrix is like a book written by the machines to better control humans. A reference is made about time being irrelevant in the matrix, maybe because the past, present, and future is already written in the Matrix. That’s why it appears the oracle and some others can see the future. Because the machines had written the future by making the choices for us, humans wouldn’t accept the program. (Nobody wants to be a slave.) But the machines cannot allow humans to make choices; this would make the matrix unstable due to unpredictability and they would begin to lose control. So instead of giving humans the option to choose, they are given the illusion of choice instead. The oracle knew Neo was going to take the candy, but made it look like he made that decision. Neo and his predecessors are test subjects to help the machines understand cause and effect, so they can create better and more efficient illusions. The Matrix is a very, complex system and the machines that created it would be incredibly smart and know the human senses well, so creating the illusion of choosing to take candy because it tastes good is far to simple. Something that is more complex and near impossible for anyone or anything to understand is love, that’s were Neo comes in. People make some of the most non-understandable choices in their lives because they were in love or thought they were in love. How do you create the illusion if you don’t understand the choice being made? Maybe that’s the emotional choice Neo is taking back to the mainframe, to help the machines predict what a humans choice would be for love. Course there is a lot holes and questions to be answered in this theory, but it’s just a movie.

Well, it seems that the Matrix has, at least, two levels, the 'classic Matrix' and the 'outside'.
Now the Matrix can be everything... a virtual reality game used by humans from the future, a total computer simulation of human beings (no humans attached to the system at all), and every other theory you can think of.
I recommend you to watch the movie '13th Floor' , it's interesting and very related to Matrix.

The Oracle cannot be the "Mother of the matrix". That is Neo's first guess but when he says "The Oracle", the Architect replies with a simple dismissive "Please". He said the mother was a program that studied the human psyche. The program that best fits that description is Persephone. She thrives on human's emotions, like when she kisses Neo in the movie, or when she kisses Niobe and Ghost in the Enter the Matrix game.

I think people are making too much of the architects dismissive "please" - ive only seen once but dont remember it being blatantly sarcastic- i just thought he was asking neo to stop interrupting.

comment on maximumbob's "Topic 3 - Power Out of Matrix": as far as I have understood, the matrix does not control the machines... the machines developed the architect who then created and supervised all the versions of the matrix. so the machines control the matrix. The new power of Neo outside the matrix is still an open issue for me.

Here's an excellent thread on the topic of The Matrix Reloaded:

http://www.kottke.org/03/05/030515the_matrix_r.html

Grant is right, The matrix (via The Oracle) can determine wether or not Neo is going to eat the candy. It is able to do so because it is a higly developped VR/AI computer program that can analyze human's behaviour and anticipate their action. Its power come from the ability to interpret the millions of informations generated by a human being. The Matrix knows he is going to eat the candy because he knows "the way he thinks". And finally gives him the illusion of choice to preserve his need for freedom, and keep control him.

But, to disagree with Grant's comment, I don't understand why love would be different to greed (for candy). To us humans, some decision generated by love/hate are not understandable, but it doesn't meant that these decisions are completely random. If we don't understand it, it is just because we miss the necessary informations, or we are not able to interpret them. But in theory the computer (and especially, the Matrix) doesn't have such limitations.

To summarize, I'd say that if the computer is able to anticipate Neo's decision for the candy it should be able to guess if he is going to pick Door 2. For the Matrix it is just a more complex calculation.

This is fascinating how the Ws Bros are depicting the illusion of choice and freedom. After all, isn't it what democracy is all about ?
Just because we are free to make our own decision we believe we are free, but these decision are made thanks to our own capacity to understand and analyze the world around us. And this capacity is relatively limited, and so is our free-will.
This free-will depends on the information you have.

The 3rd episode is going to end very bad. Free-will is an illusion ...

I admit, I fall into the "the Oracle is not the Mother" camp. After all, we have to have someone to introduce in the third movie!

And I personally don't believe that Neo has any new powers outside the Matrix. What makes anyone of you think that Zion is actually outside of the Matrix?

It's a classic fictional conundrum. Once you've gone into the fairie hill, how do you know you've ever really left? Once you start up a holodeck, when do you really know you're out? Once reality is the Matrix, how can you have any faith in your ability to have escaped.

After all, aren't we all just programs playing our part? That theme crops up in a millions subtle ways, even in the Zion scenes with the otherwise "untainted" humans as well. It also helps to explain Smith's "escape" into "the real world."

Of course the Oracle is not the mother of the matrix. The Architect said she is it's "proverbial" mother and described her as an intuitive program. She said "We're all meant to do what we're all meant to do" and she was written see into the reasons why humans make the choices they make. She also said that programs choose exile when facing deletion. If she can't be trusted why is she herself an exile? why does she have a "protector of that which matters most?" and what is it the "matters most?" Her "children" in the first movie now live in Zion and we know this by Neo being given the spoon from the kid in the Oracles apartment in the first movie. If she really was an enemy, she could have given up Morpheous to the agents a long time ago. Apparently, that was a job for Cipher.

On the power outside the Matrix:

Go back to the first movie when Neo took his first jump, fell and bled. After being unplugged in the "real world" he wiped blood from his mouth asked Morpheous "I thought you said it wasn't real". Morpheous said "your mind makes it real". Neo: "So if you die in the Matrix, your die in the real world"? Morpheous "The body cannot live without the mind". Neo not only died, but ressurected in both worlds after Trinity kissed him. Remember, your body in the matrix is a "mental projection of your digital self". Neo jumps into Smith thinking he killed him. But Smith got some of Neo copied into him. Smith in the second movie is now happily bootlegging himself and he even hacked into a human mind (Baines)because he too is now an anomaly. Neo is not aware of any of this yet. Neo saves Trinity this time from death and I'm surprised no one has mentioned their thoughts on what will become of her now. If you get exposed to the power of the "One" do you now become that power? and if so, maybe the key to destroying the Matrix is that Neo, like Smith, has to copy himself by sharing his power with the other rebels. He is after all an anomaly. If everyone in Zion is like him, how could it be destroyed? and how could the Matrix exist if Neo figures out that he too can copy himself like a virus? He would no longer be an "anomaly" but the norm. But hey, like everyone else here with a comment, this could all be bullshit by the third movie. I do like Scott's theory though.

All these theories have me thinking but personally i thought from seeing the movie 3 times, all the ones walked through door number 2.
If u watch the scene when neo is talking to the architect, and all the screens in the background are the previous ones, they all head towards door number 2. watch carefully

I don't think the screens in the background are the previous ones. The screens in the background are simulations of Neo. There is something different in each one of those simulations (don't know what exactly), and this difference make them have different reactions. Yet all of them choose door 2 because they (he) was "being led there the whole time" making that choice the only choice possible (at least in all of the simulations). Yet Neo is _somehow_ different to all the simulations (remember architect pointing out "That was quicker than the others")
I wonder if the Ws Bros accepted what Acrelune mentions "Free-will is an illusion". Which of course is the real truth :o

i think every time the matrix was remade that it was made inside the old matrix and neo has just been able to work in the older matrix(the supposed "real world/zion") and that the older matrix is zion which is inside another older matrix etc.....until you get to the actual real world

I believe that Zion is not the "real world" but that it is still part of the matrix. I mean once you "free" these people they won't be trying to get out of anything anymore, since they are already freed according to them. What better way to control humans than that.
On Neo's powers outside the matrix, well as you can see i believe that zion is still the matrix, just another part of it. And i think he's able to do what he does to those sentinels because he's not serving his purpose anymore. it's like the oracle said; anything out of place in the matrix is a program that is not doing it's job (angels, ghosts, ufo's), like agent smith, he's not serving his purpose anymore, he is no longer a part of the world that is based on rules, that's why he can copy himself and he made it all the way to zion. And Neo's purpose is to to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. He didn't do that this time around, since i believe that the ones before him, took the first door. So now he is no longer serving his purpose, and now he can feel all these things "outside of the matrix" because of that. He said he can feel the sentinels, so that means that he is no longer a part of a world based on rules. Since everyone in zion basically is under control, and under the illusion that it's the real world, and all the rules apply there, rules like gravity etc. Neo is no longer a part of that, so now he can apply his powers there aswell.
By the way, i have seen this movie 7 times.
You must also remember that everyone has a purpose, and I've been thinking that Trinity's sole purpose was to give neo the choice between the 2 doors. Think about it...during the speech that Morpheus gives before they move into the building where there's that special door that leads to the architect...he says; "when i see 3 ships, 3 captains, 3 objectives", he doesn't believe it to be coinsidence or chance, he says it's providence, it's PURPOSE. One of the units fail, in which case trinity has to move in, so that neo will have to make the choice, everything happens for a reason!! It all falls into place so that Neo has to make the choice.
i believe what the architect has said, maybe he left some out, but i believe all the things he said to be true.
Another thing that makes me believe that zion is a part of the matix is that agent smith tells neo right before the "burly brawl", he says; "we are not here because we are free, we are here because we are not free, there is no denying the obvious", so that makes me believe that he is refering to zion, that no one is unplugged, and he speaks fo purpose, it's the purpose that binds us and all that...purpose is something that is very much focused on in this movie, purpose and "why"...so i would advise enyone out there trying to figure stuff out about this movie...ask why, and look for purpose.
This is just a small note but, something troubles me about the councelor...as he speaks with neo on the balcony right before they go out to the engine room, neo tells him that he can't sleep very well, he says that it's a good sign, neo asks of what, and he answers "that you are still in fact human" now i believe that the only entities that i have ever heard utter those words in either movie was agents and/or programs working for the machines, they always say..."only human", so if zion is in fact part of the matrix, that means that basically we have no idea who is human and who is working for the construct, and i believe that just because the councelor said that he is a bit untrustworthy...hey call me crazy but it just seems weird to me, and then the weird speach they had down there by the engine room about how we are dependant on the machines, and so forth, and the way he answers neo when neo points out that they can shut the machines down whenever they see fit, and he answers a bit too sarcastically for my taste, he says" oh sure u figured it out...blah blah blah.." it kind of freaks me out.
anyways i ahve already written the equivelant of the bible here, so i'll spare you more of my theories, if you actually took the time to read this i thank you, and i would appreciate it if anyone reacts to this at all, thanx in advance

-matrix freak bobby

I believe my purpose now is to further educate you on your idealistic theories on The Matrix. Have you done your homework?

If you want a true explanation of the Matrix, make sure you have read Scott's explanation above; continue on your path by reading the following articles:

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

http://blogs.salon.com/0001797/2003/05/19.html

http://webpages.charter.net/btakle/matrix_reloaded.html#oracle

It seems different people have just thought the way i think. i liked all the comments.

i say this way:

# Zion is not out of the Matrix

remember some dialogs from the first movie when they were speaking about the 'dream' and 'waking up' ...
first, when that boy 'Choi' came to Neo's appartment, Neo said: "You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?" the answer was: "All the time."
and later, when Neo was sitting in front of that mirror and touched it and all that... Morpheus said: "Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"
Yet there's no answer ... but the power of stopping the sentinals doesn't seem to be possible in the real world.

# Oracle is a friend

The Oracle approves that she is a program and has some purposes. This is enough for thinking we should not trust her. But, why is she always hiding? Why are the agents after her to destroy her?
i think because she is a rebel. she does no longer obay the Matrix. She has her own reasons.
And this fact that 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend." makes her our friend (I mean Neo's friend ;) )

# (No longer Agent) Smith could be helpful

the same reason applies for Smith. But, 'cuz he is somehow crazy! :D we can't count on him as a friend, however he may probably be helpful for fighting Matix.

# Choice will always remain an illusion

well... i personally beleive that if the Zion is inside the Matrix, there will be no escape to the real world (as Smith said: "we are not here because we are free, we are here because we are not free.")
and, that is quite obvious for me that the Architect knew that Neo will choose door2. So what? Would the controlers let it happen this easy? :-/ ... so i think the Architect lied about the crash and distruction of Matrix.
On the other hand the Oracle told Neo: "Did you see her die?" somehow encouraging Neo to get back and try to save Trinity's life.
This means the story continues and the choice (choosing door2 by Neo) was again an illusion.

that was what i tought :) of course this is a movie and we should wait for it "TO BE CONCLUDED" (one of the weirdest endings! it killed me! ;) )

P.s. Forgive me, my english is not so good :">

I'm rather on board with the whole theory of "there is no *outside* of The Matrix. Neo's ability to stop the machines at the end of Reloaded seems to me to be a bit out of line with the general theme of the series, but it fits perfectly if you consider that perhaps there is no "outside" at all, and that all of reality is simply another layer of someone's program somewhere.

The other thing which points to this is the Smith/human which was transferred from the Matrix and into Zion early in the film, and who now lays unconscious on the table opposite Neo at the conclusion of the film. How does a computer construct exist in the "real" world at all, and how would it be a threat to anyone unless that individual was still in an electronic dream world?

I just saw the movie and, after reading the comments above a crazy idea came to me. I'm presenting it here to provoke thought. I have no idea whether it is true anymore than you believe your ideas are true.

I came away from the Architect's revelation with the thought that everything Neo experienced, from his life in the Matrix to being unplugged, to his life in Zion, was all part of the program. In other words -- The "Real World" that Neo was awakened to was just another part of the Matrix constructed to meet the expectations of that .1% who rejected the Matrix.

I suspect that the reason why Neo was given a choice of which door to pick was to satisfy the requirements of the program. The anomaly is choice. To rob Neo of choice by sending him directly to the Source defeats the purpose of the buffer program.

Here is what I believe: I believe that Neo and all of his friends are still inside the Matrix even when they are in the "Real World" and Zion. Zion is merely a holding tank for the aberrent .1% who reject the Matrix. Zion gathers the abberents in one place. When their population reaches a level where they threaten the system, the One appears and brings about the destruction of Zion. In other words -- the machines hit the "reset" button and reboot the computer. Thus the entire process begins again. When Neo said "I can feel them" about the sentinels -- he was realizing that he could only sense them if he was still inside the Matrix. When he lashed out at the sentinels, he denied the reality he was in and suffered a backlash. I suspect that Neo was unplugged from the Matix for real, this time.

I have no theories about Smith or the Oracle. I'm content to enjoy the story until such a time as more information is presented. If anything, "The Matrix" is brilliant in that it spurs people to think very deeply about the nature of reality and the perception of reality. I like brain candy!

I agree with all your theory, except I do not think there is any distinction between your Matrix 3 and Matrix 4. Neo is the 6th One in the Matrix 3. The 99.9% acceptance rate is the best the machines have ever been able to achieve and it is the 0.1% rate that are always prime for 'saving'.

An unrelated question: What is that traitor all about? If he worked for the machines why was he trying to kill Neo before he returned to the source?

After reading a few of the above comments I want add that I do not think that Neo is necessarily still in a matrix at the end of the movie. He has never had powers or sense in Zion before and there are no adequate explanations of his coma. I think we need to wait for the 3rd movie to really know.

1) Am I the only one who thinks that the candy the Oracle gives Neo looks a lot like the red pill? Those cookies always had me thinking of the Hansel and Gretta story...Ginger bread house(lost path/cook them in the oven ie give code back to the Matrix) but it's easy to force analogies...
2)Banes cutting his hand followed by Banes touching Neo could also be the connection between the two in the Zion World. Is Neo infected by this contact?
3)In the Revolutions preview, a voice is warning Neo that Smith would be difficult to stop after a certain point (sounds like Persiphone)..
Hence the rain fight scene with thousands of Smiths lined up in the background Neo going toe to toe with one of them.
4)Another twist that might be unexpected Revolutions preview Morpheus says "He fights for us" may or may not hold a deeper meaning.

Assumption :Zion is part of the matrix

The oracle knew about love
Was remembering The oracle telling Trinity that she would fall in love with The one in 'The matrix' .Which would mean programs know enough about human love to predict it(intuitive program) or was the program merely creating auto suggestions in trinity's mind ?(why? hand in glove with the architect to create some sort of new test condition for the one? why?)
The oracle seems to be less of an oracle and more of someone who predicts the future assuming the past repeats or...she simply hopes to influence people to further the architects plans .

Neo is a program
By now inclined to believe that the one is a program ,specifically cos of key statments the archi made talking about The one's design and purpose

In this movie the meaning of the word 'purpose' is more applicable to programs then humans -which leads to more confusion on who's human and who's program -.
Also most programs would know their given purpose -some even reject it and define their own,the runaway programs -, this would contradict assumption of neo being a program..but then again he probably didnt know cos he was meant to assume he was human.
This would also fit with him going back to integrate with the source ...to give new info on the 0.1% of humans who seem to reject the matrix and basically get rid of the anomaly?

Why was there a choice between the doors ,it could have been just another test situation for The one program based on how the program evolved with the 0.1% of humans , but this is not a significant reason for the presence of choice and it seems to be the most crucial part of the movie.

Undecided on
1)if the 6th One is a runaway program (the other five realising their purpose conformed..leading to the 'why choice' question again )he currently isn't fitting into archis plans .
2)Everything is going according to archis plans( which we have no clue about ) somehow this would result in audiences feeling very dissatisfied and disappointed .
Atleast I would be.I want human victory.
3)OR HE IS STILL A HUMAN!.

OK, if there's one thing i have learned from the matrix movies is that everything said and done in these movies has purpose, every little thing.
So with this i ask your help on something.
When speaking to the oracle in reloaded, when the Oracle asks Neo; "how do you feel" Neo is about to answer and she says "i know your not sleeping" or at least that's what i think she said.
Now why would she say that, what does she mean by that, does that have to do with anything important, ami overlooking something here, and another thing, when she says "the only way to get to the future is together" by that does she mean, neo and her, or humanity and the machines, i would appreciate if someone reacts to this post, please gimme your thought, thank you in advance.
*Free your minds*

if you have seen the trailer for revolution and seen reloaded then does tha mean that smith can be pluged in and out of the matrix and if he can why not just pull the plug

What me and (some of) my friends feel:

"Oracle" is the bugcatcher program, who makes a follower (Morpheus) to find the most buggy program ("The One") and sends that programmer to the "Architect", who will take the appearance of "The One" at his doors as an indicator that the "0.1%" guys have reached the max limit and will repeat the process of rebuilding Zion.

It is very sad to know that all the efforts and hopes we've put on the first part goes in drain.

Thats a whole load of theories! Would definitely give Lord Of The Rings a run for its money.

I cannot say i understood the 'Reloaded' 100%. Not that the movie was simple. There are a lot of loop holes.

About Zion:

Some say Zion is just a receptacle for the 0.1% who do not accept the Matrix. But why do the machines wait till they have a Zion in their hands? Why cant they kill all the humans as soon as they are unplugged from the system? (Remeber in Matrix 1 when this huse machine ripped off Neo's connections?? It could have killed Neo!) So if the machines dont let the people who reject the system live..there would be no Zion!!

About Machines

Someone here says the machines are controlled my the Matrix..I disagree.. Matrix is like this huge Virtual reality Program to which humans are plugged into so that they dont just take a walk!
Which leads us to the question..how does Neo stop the machines at the end of Reloaded??

About Oracle
This part i didnt get it at all.. If she is just another program defecting.. how does she know that Neo doesnt sleep?? I mean.. Neo was way down in the Zion..the real human world. How could a program like Oracle know whats happening in there??

About Matrix

Why does Neo has to try and shut the Matrix from inside it? Why cant he and a big army try and pull the plug from Outside (the real world with all the twisted junk and metal)??

Theories

1. Is that people of Zion are still a part of some virtual reality program. They are the cream who rejected the inferior Matrix A lets say.
now they are presented with Matrix B where they think they are free but infact they are not! And seems like Neo is about to break free from Martix B and (maybe) move into the real world.

2. Is that the machines were really taking Neo on a trip by saying all that stuff about Choices and Options, thereby diverting his attention from the main thing..the core of Matrix Itself.

But then..we can only interpret. Whatever it is ..if there is more to come..the movie makers are making a mistake of giving too much information in just three movies.. I wonder if three parts might be enough in the end to complete the story....

Thanks for reading.

If you have any thoughts..mail me...

Saw Reloaded for the 2nd time last night. Most of what everyone says makes sense. I like the "Zion is also a simulation" theory. (To reiterate what someone else said earlier, I STRONGLY urge everyone to check out 13th floor, if you haven't seen it already... great related movie!!)

Someone else commented about Smith being in the "real world". I don't think that is the case (unless they mean the sole Zion survivor). My thought there is that it is not much of a stretch to assume that if human brainwaves can be translated into digital form to become part of a computer simulation that those same brain waves could not be "overwritten" or replaced with a digital program.

Here's a new question that I have not seen posted here. Depending on how much is revealed in revolutions, is there any chance that we could be seeing a Matrix "Prequel" in a couple of years (ala Star Wars)? Sure would help explain a lot!

Cheers all!

I agree with medianlines that the candy did look exactly like the red pill. I've only seen the movie once, but I didn't notice Neo eat the candy; only the Oracle.

The Neo/Trinity sex scene, I believe, is foreshadowing a child...

The more I think about "the matrix within a matrix" theory, the more I start thinking about possible endings to Revolutions.

Then, I can almost picture a scene in which Neo is astride a horse, with Trinity clutching him around the waist, silent, and clad in tattered patent leather, the both of them riding along the beach towards a disembodied Statue of Liberty.

"Whoa."

"Dude."

"Whoa."

"I mean, whoa."

"They, like, blew it up."

"Maniacs."

What I want to know is why, if specific love for Trinity would lead Neo to choosing the "wrong" door, would the machines try to make Neo fall in love with Trinity (The Oracle's prediction, etc.)?

Just a thought:
Has any resident of Zion seen the surface? If not, it could be (following the "Zion is still in the Matirx" theory) that the surface is where the Matrix part is and Zion and all the rest is beneath the surface of that world. That would make it all one program with all humans in one 3D-rendered environment. I guess it could be separate, but it's just a thought

I have two things to talk about.

Other than the sentinels, agents and various programs in the Matrix, does anyone know what other machines there are? The machines HAVE to be doing something other than dealing with the Matrix. Don't they have a real world population other than Sentinels?

Also, don't you think that since Neo now has powers outside the Matrix that there could be two concurrently running Matrix's? Take a sec and read: There could be a smaller Matrix in which Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, Niobe, etc. hop in and out of and a much larger Matrix? Everyone...EVERYONE would be connected to the larger Matrix and live their life like that. Maybe that's how Neo "manipulated" the larger one and destroyed the Sentinels. What sent him into a coma would be the overload because the larger Matrix would be so much more massive.

Just wondering,
email me for an responses: sonicboom37@yahoo.com

Hi all,

I wonder what happened to the first five "the ones". If they created zion once destroyed they must be existin unless they die of old age. Even then the other humans should be having some knowledge gain of "the one".

"The One" getting new powers escapes logic. If he receives it from agent smith as some suggest, the again it should lie in the matrix and not outside it. Even if agent smith lends something it should lie in his mind his phsyche How can it help him stop the sentinels like that in real world.

Zion cannot be another Matrix because if they simulate an environment for the anomalies then they would have done that in the Matrix itself.

okay generally agree with you there. But I think Neo has powers outside the matrix because, they never really left it. the matrix which we see is actually a smaller matrix designed so that the people who don't accept that reality have somewhere else to go., 'the real world' this is in fact another part of the matrix. everybody is still in the matrix and those that thought they were born in zion weren't, there still in the matrix. hence why agent smith was able to upload his mind in to a human body. and why Neo was able to feel the squiddies. He realised that the matrix was just a trap and therefore broke the rule of choicing to belive that the real world was real. it makes sense people.

Very good analysis. I'm starting to understand some of this, but I think I need one more trip to the cinema. Here are some of my thoughts...

Your assertion is that Neo's love of Trinity breaks the cycle on this (the sixth) iteration. I agree, but let's explore that some. Where did that love come from? In the first movie the Oracle plants the seed in Neo's mind when she says, "I can see why she likes you." Neo then looks all confused and the Oracle goes on to tell him that he's "not too bright." Of course the Oracle also foretold to Trinity that she would fall in love with the One. The Oracle plays matchmaker knowing that this Neo will choose the other door thus causing the Matrix to crash.

So what is the Oracle's motivation for doing this? She's part of the Matrix and has an interest in seeing it continue to exist. Why would she try to break the cycle?

What is Agent Smith's motivation now? He tells Neo that he wants the same thing he does: Everything. Does Smith want to control the Matrix? By the way, I don't think the Architect is the leader of the machines. He is just the designer of the Matrix. I think there is a more powerful entity behind him controlling things. Perhaps Smith wants to become that entity.

Smith also is apparently another difference between this iteration and the previous ones. After the first fight between Neo and the two agents, two Smiths show up and one says, "That went as expected." The other then says, "Just like before." To which the first replies, "Well, not *exactly* like before."

There's one thing I noticed but haven't seen mentioned anywhere. Maybe it's nothing but it bothers me. In the scene when the two rebels (Bane and another whose name I forget) get the message from the Oracle, the message is on a data chip of some kind. One of them puts it in his pocket and picks up the phone to exit the Matrix while the other (Bane) remains behind. Smith then shows up and infects Bane with the "Smith virus". Later, they give the data chip to Neo and tell him it's from the Oracle. My question is how did the chip get from the Matrix to the real world? This gives creedance to the theory that Zion is another level of the Matrix but I'm not buying that theory yet. Is it an oversight? Am I making too much out of it? It's been bugging me and I can't explain it.

Anyway, Scott, thanks for the insight. I'm really looking forward to Revolutions!

I have been palying "enter the matrix" for the last month now and there are amny things int here that hep alot with the movie:

they are listed here:

1. There is a homeless man that says to Nyobi
"72, 72 hours is how long it took zion to be destroyed last time."
Nyobi replies with, "what do you mean and who are you?"
"Who ME? i am nothing, just another spectator enjoying the ride"

2. Ghost is talking to the oracle (who's appearence has now changed) and he says to her
"what happened to you?"
"two people i trusted, sold my destruction code to the merovingian, therefor terminating my appearence shell. But what I am inside stays the same, I just can't be recognised."
Ghost replies, "so you new they were selling it, yet you let them continue?"
"they had to sell it."
"why?"
"to save their son."
"so, millions of people die every day"
" yes but this boy will one day change our world and zion. He is very impoertant."

Fact: With this many postulates, the answer to what the wachowskis have in store for Revolutions must be on this page... There are after all only two of them, and many of us.

Also: People are reading too much reading into irrelevant geektails… I have reconstructed one such stupidity below to illustrate my case…

“What I don’t get is how we see neo wiped his arse in the first film with his right hand. We see in the matrix reloaded that in a shot of a mirror, Neo is again wiping his arse with his right hand, but this is a mirror shot… it should be reversed and he should in fact be seen to be wiping his arse with the left hand! Also, in Revolutions in the ship explosion the flame space-time modelling seems to be acting in accordance with Bernoulli’s equation yet the flame frequency is blue shifted whilst in the matrix it seems to obey all physical laws except at the quantum level. Please someone comment on this soul destroying knowledge to make me feel better.”

Thinking this trilogy will be so perfectly constructed is, ahem, our quintessential human delusion. Maybe the bros will read all the sh”t we’ve wrote, realise their bluff has been called and there are no storylines they could possibly make cos everyone’s found a problem with each one and rewrite the Revolutions to make Neo wake up thinking it was “all a dream”….

It’s just a good set of movies people.

>Zion cannot be another Matrix because if they
>simulate an environment for the anomalies then
>they would have done that in the Matrix itself.

It doesn't have to be a different matrix. The matrix is an illusion for your mind, and for those that do not accept the normal everyday simulation of life in the matrix, the machines present these people with an alternate reality where they believe they have escaped the matrix. The main supporting observation(s) for this is as follows:
1. If Zion were in fact the 'real world' outside the matrix, that the machines intended as a bit bucket, then why not just kill the 0.1% of humans who won't accept the matrix. When Neo was supposedly freed from the matrix, we saw a machine come down and 'look' at him, before letting him be released down the drain. Why not just kill him right there?

2. ...which leads us to #2, which is the fact that humans are a very valuable source of energy to the machines and thus should be preserved at all cost. Therefore for those 0.1% of humans who won't adhere, the machines make them believe they have been freed to a cynical post-apocalyptic world. In fact their minds are just being presented with an alternate reality - the supposed liberation to zion.

One thing I have not heard addressed is the nature of the Architect. Is he (a) a virtual embodiment of the singular consiousness of the machines, or (b) the human being that initially designed the conscious machines or just decided to collaborate with them.

And finally, if you believe #1 and #2 above then is Neo a program or a human discrepancy? If he is a program, the purpose would likely be that he was designed to make #2 (a false Zion) more plausible to the 0.1% human group. However, I tend to think his coma at the end of Reloaded was either a catastrophic realization that Zion is a part of the matrix, OR is a result of him being REALLY freed from the matrix (of which zion is a part). This points to him being human.

Sometimes the most obvious answer is the one most readily ignored. Rather than looking for complex intricate solutions to the riddle, we should maybe look at the obvious facts presented to us so far.

wow great explanation, the diagram rules!
if only they could have explained it well
in the movie, it would have been a really good scene. They could've definitely done with some useful visual aids, instead of some old guy reciting long words in a monotonous tone.

Like the way Morpheus explained to Neo what the matrix was in the first movie...that was brilliant...stylized and cool

Seriously, if the architect had done the same thing, people would be more 'wo' rather than 'what the?'

The theories presented here have been really helpful in my quest to understand this movie. For what it's worth I tend to fall into the "Zion is Part of the Matrix" camp. I was hoping one of the learned members of this community could explain or theorize as to the following;

When Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity go to see the Merovingian, as their walking thru the restaurant, Neo turns his head to the left and sees a man with his hand on the shoulder of another man in front of him, as if he's escorting him out of the restaurant. The scene only lasts for about 2 seconds. At first I equated it with the wierd looks Neo gave to the Fedex guy and the window washer in the first movie, but since we all know that he's in the matrix, I didn't see the point of the scene.

Can anyone speculate as to what the significance of this scene was?

How about (the existence of) the spoon ?

Why Neo can use his power also into the real world ? this should be impossibble ! but if real world is a secon matrix, and matrix a sort of matrix into the matrix and Neo understand this he could be able to use is power here.
... see therteenth floor.

Well, after reading all this (yes, somehow I managed ;)) I realized that there are more to the matrix than it seems. And only lots of people can track all (at least 99.99%) the issues. So here go my comments.

First of all, I think that Zion is part of Matrix. It was said that machines started using humans as energy supply because all other sources where terminated (scorched sky and other things). So how can all the ships and Zion function if there is no single source of energy and they are real? (From physical point of view even the human beings cannot be used as energy sources as they must be "fed" and adding another link to the food chain only decreases the amount of energy produced. but that's what sci-fi is for).

Second, the difference between a human brain and a software program is subtle. The fact that they are able to communicate stands for this. In fact, all that Matrix stuff is just the exchange of information. The machines interpret the data sent by human brain, make decisions and send back data such that human brain could correctly "understand" it. All the trick with "special capabilities" is that it is possible to send something special to machines but nobody knows what exactly. The learning is the process of trial-and-error and so if you are lucky, you guess the correct data sequence. A similar process goes in the opposite direction where machines are trying to craft data so that the further behaviour may be controlled. The code copy or overwrite can be thought as a hack, e.g. buffer overflow :)

One more interesting detail. Recall the scene where Neo fights the guardian before he sees The Oracle? The guardian explains why he had to fight Neo: "you cannot know someone until you fight them". Doesn't it look like some kind of challenge-response authentication (recall ssl,rsa,etc)? I mean, if you ask someone who he is, you are asking him to tell you a kind of password. You cannot trust it as the password can be intercepted and reproduced.

The Oracle is a "mother" that The Architect was talking of. His "please" was a replica to the name that Neo gave that program -- "Oracle". The Architect objected that it cannot be called oracle as it cannot always predict the future.

"The body cannot live without mind" is something arguable. I mean, it may not live, but it may function when brains are still waiting for input from Matrix but get nothing. A comma?

The fact that the heart stops beating is a side effect of loosing mind. The body could as well enter comma instead but brains received "kill" signal first. Neo circumvents this by sending "proper" signals to Trinity and she resurrects.

My "prophecy" is that Neo (or someone) finds the way to write arbitrary code into Matrix (he has already written something onto Smith and Smith is able to write itself onto others. notice that he cannot just spawn copies of itself, he needs a substrate) and thus gain control over anything in the Matrix. That way everyone will be released by sending "wake up" signals and the whole Matrix will be happily shut down.

Ain't I a little too robotic? :)))

You all fail to understand the true reason why Neo has the ability to stop the Sentinels outside the Matrix.

Yet another level of control by the machines. Yes, a Matrix within a Matrix. Remember, it is not the spoon that bends but the mind. Therefore, there is no spoon!

I can't wait for Revolution. Man and machine re-unite once again.

Just a thought. In the first Matrix the agents where able to deploy sentinals. If Neo is linked to Agent Smith Maybe he has gained the power to control them and even destropy them.

Free will and determinism are two sides of the same story …

Sufficiently complex systems like THE MATRIX can be both deterministic AND unpredictable: Deterministic in the sense that at some basic level events are governed by simple laws of cause and effect .Unpredictable because there are so many contributing events, each interacting with each other in so many possible ways , that more complicated behaviours can ‘emerge’ within the system at higher levels : behaviours that cannot be accurately predicted ( even THE ORACLE cannot see the future ‘completely’ .She cannot do this because to do so she needs to know every detail of the very system of which she is a part)

Therefore I think that the relationship between The MATRIX and Humans is a metaphor for the relationship between mind and body, body and matter, and by extension how Humans emerged as ‘conscious’ and ‘self-aware’ beings (much like I recall once seeing a screen saver program in which beautiful and increasingly complicated ferns ‘self –assemble’ using a computer algorithm composed of just a few simple rules)

The GUARDIAN, when he takes NEO down to view the machines, says that he often goes down there at night (when he also cannot sleep).The Machines represent what underlies and produces all our ‘higher’ thoughts and feelings and also that which sustain us : our brains and our bodies. Our brains are the ‘hardware’ or ‘machines’ from whose action consciousness and conscious ‘entities’emerge. At that basic level these machines are made of millions of identical little parts, interacting via simple, machine-like rules of cause and effect. No individual brain-cell knows ‘what it is’ or ‘what it does’.And yet from the product of this vast number of simple interactions, at higher and higher levels of complexity, emerges…US : conscious human beings. NEO can’t sleep because we are all at some time bothered by our dreams : dreams come from ‘deep down’, a difficult-to-understand place where our conscious thoughts are germinated : THE GUARDIAN is leading NEO to this insight. The machines are also a metaphor for the body : The GUARDIAN implies that we depend on ,and are therefore to some extent ALWAYS controlled by the machines. They make all the air and water and other necessities of life in Zion even though no-one knows how they do so: the GUARDIAN then seems to say that NEO has no more control or power over the machines by being to ‘switch them off ’ that he would have control over his own body by being able to switch off his lungs or stomach. And in The Matrix I MORPHEUS says the converse : that the body cannot exist without the mind .

The overall message is this : that Humans and the MATRIX depend on each other : Humans depend on machines for physical existence and sustenance, Machines depend on humans for creative emergent behaviour that allows the combined system to evolve. I think it is significant that 23 is the number chosen to rebuild humanity: the number of available chromosomes ‘chosen’ at conception to ‘build’ a new human ‘machine’( yes I know that with NEO that’s 24 and that would be a Chimp but he is still in a coma)

In that sense I agree that ZION, ‘the real world’ is another ,more complex, level of THE MATRIX : the level of conscious thought where choices (appear) to be made and creativity emerges that allows the matrix to reinvent itself and so evolve.At the lowest level ,99.9 % of the Matrix ‘components’ are like those neurons firing away at the lowest level of physical existence: mechanical , machine-like, deterministic .Happy to ‘obey the rules’ and keeping the system-at-large ‘in harmony’. ‘Up Here’ in the world of thought and conscious ‘awakening’, Humans make choices , which I think is another word for CREATIVE BEHAVIOUR. The machines need Humans because of their creative potential : that which allows the MATRIX as a whole to EVOLVE. Without this the Matrix stagnates and dies. Yet I think the free will that the Humans believe they possess is not free : it is an illusion. Humans are pre-programmed s ‘from below’ to ‘choose’ between the alternatives presented to them ‘Up Here’ .Yet because the world is so complicated at the level of ‘Up Here’ their choices produce consequences that cannot be accurately predicted by them: creativity and novelty emerge. We believe ourselves to be self-aware and to be ‘making choices’ yet we are 1) pre-programmed to choose and 2) see the product of those choices as being wholly ‘determined’ by us (MORPHEUS says words to the effect that things could not have occurred in any other way than they did: this is just an ‘Illusion of Purpose’ that we impose on what we have just seen occur: AFTER the fact )

The MATRIX needs Humans not only because of energy requirement but because in humans machines can provoke choice-making and therefore creative outcomes. Its just evolution in progress. The ARCHITECT says in his speech that the Matrix (Universe) is much older than anyone thinks. The Matrix needs the creativity that only humans like NEO (and Trinity) can provide (like the feel of a real kiss, or the development of NEO’s extraordinary abilities to detect/defeat agents) .Yet The ARCHITECT fears this creativity .He fears NEO because he cannot control creativity : by definition creative behaviour can lead to unpredictable, chaotic outcomes. The machines have given up SOME control by allowing Zion to develop as the place where the non-conformist ‘choice-makers’ can thrive but at the same time The ARCHITECT speaks for the machine world on the dangers of relinquishing all control over humans by allowing ZION to become too dominant .He and The ORACLE try to contain ,direct and channel NEO because they know that evolution can lead to unexpected and undesirable outcomes ( like extinction).NEO is the ONE (or one of the ones) because he has the potential to guide the system (universe) to a better , 6 th incarnation.

In fact the brain-body-mind analogy might just be a reflection of the wider universe at large: there may be a matrix, having evolved within a matrix ,within a matrix…at higher and higher levels of complexity ,yet with the potential to take a wrong turn and ‘snuff itself out’

Ok, everyone here has talked about The Matrix and also Matrix Reloaded.

Has anyone talked about the Animatrix? That itself is very related to these 2 movies as in Renaissance, it does explain a little about what happened prior to the existence of the Matrix when humans made the machines and co-existed until some psycho machine went crazy and killed their owner, etc causing the government to release a bill to destroy that particular robot model.

However, cut to the chase, machines used the humans as their source of energy and blah blah created the Matrix. So when Morpheus said that "humans scorched the sky" - as this was the machines source of energy, it was all true.

Also, with the last episode of the Animatrix - The final flight of the Osiris, we see another ship going to the surface and seeing the Sentinels dig through the surface to try and get to Zion. (They leave a package which is then picked up by someone else in the Matrix Reloaded when they have that gathering of ship Captains). So this does answer someone's question about has anyone seen the surface.

In addition, the MMORPG game for the Matrix continues from Matrix Revolutions and you are still inside the Matrix. So all this information will help you understand a bit more about Matrix Reloaded and also the forthcoming and final movie Matrix Revolutions.

As for theories, I leave that all up to you guys, maybe some of you will have more to say on this after what I have written.

I saw Matrix:Reloaded and I must say I was a lot more confused than at the end of the first films.

First of all, I can say that I buy the "second matrix" theory, although my not quite sure about it.

Just some toughts:
1) I may be absolutely wrong, but it doesn't seem that machines (programs) are able to lie to humans. They can retain important information, but they don't lie. It may be that no scenes presented us with a machine lie, but it may be an important information. Anyway, some "lies" may have slipped pass my memory, so maybe what I'm saying is total nonsense.

2) The architect talks about the 0.1% rejection rate. Some say the machines allow people to go to Zion and that at some point they must destroy it because Zion gets too big. But if Zion is exterior to the Matrix, what's the point of this? A rational explanation would be that they want to extract energy from the people who are on Zion too, like their investment is lost, but before loosing it completely (reload of matrix) they want to profit from it. But this is rational ONLY if Zion is also in a Matrix.

3) If there's a second Matrix (or n Matrix), then all the things about human providing energy to the machine is nonsense and only a simulation too.

4) #3 leads me to my part of the theory: Everything and everyone is part of something bigger they can't see. Remember the last scene of Men In Black? What the f**k is he talking about you might say! But that last scene show us that a complete galaxy can fit in someones hand, and that someone lives in a galaxy that is in fact contained in some marble game of some bigger universe, and so on... I would see the Matrix as something like that: there's something bigger in this. If indeed there's "two" matrix, than the machines are also part of that system. Their purpose is to keep the humans alive for energy (this is what is simulated). There's something bigger up that is controlling all this. It may be machines, yes, but it may be anything else. It can be extra-terrestrial that enslaved the human race into these computer systems. It can be anything. In this movie every program seems to have a purpose, so the purpose of the machine is to keep the human race alive and the incentive to do so is that in this simulation, they need humans to survive.

Anyway, I'm not sure at all what I said is relevant, but I wanted to express it.

Okay, Everyone, The Oracle knows what's going to happen (neo choosing the candy, etc.) because she wrote everything that's going to happen. The whole "illusion of choice" thing, is true, in my beliefs. The Oracle wrote not only The Prophecy, but everything that is going to happen within The Matrix, and that's how she knew whether or not Neo was going to choose the candy. She wrote the program which decides what's going to happen.

also, I do not by the "Matrix within a Matrix theory, because it's too simple, I personally think that the Wachowski's would think of something so mind boggling, that we can't figure it out just yet.

Hey--about the ending-- yeah--it was cliffhanger! However- I read some of the theories-- but no one talked about the "bad" human who tried to kill Neo--I may have missed something--my mind wanders sometimes--but isn't that guy more than likely a human version of Agent Smith? I need to know what the thoughts are--or if that is common knowledge! The way he was acting though-- it almost felt like he was an outsider--just wondering- please e-mail

Why must we believe the Architect? Surely SOME of what he said was true, but some of it is also possibly false. Why must the Oracle be the Mother of the Matrix? The Architect refers to "she", but does not confirm Neo's assumption, but rather seems to refute it. Persephone appears to be the only other likely candidate. If she is not the Mother, then what is the purpose of her character/role? We know she is an emotional vampire; she desires to kiss Neo so that she may feel love. The Architect discloses that "she", the Mother of the Matrix who "stumbled on a solution" to the problem of previous Matricular failure, was an intuitive program that (essentially) comprehended human emotion. Is that not what Persephone's purpose seemed to be? If Persephone was a program attempting to experience "love", and the Architect seemed to already know which door Neo would choose (he chose love), doesn't that seem significant?

Merovingian gave a character a piece of cake with an imbedded program, infecting the woman at the restaurant. Before Persephone kissed Neo, she applied lipstick. Could she not likewise be infecting Neo with some sort of program?

Neo is one result of the anomaly within the Matrix which results from the unpredictability of human choice. Agent Smith seems to be the anti-anomaly, or Neo's anti-particle. When a particle and its anti-particle come in to contact with one another, they distroy each other (-1 + 1): the net increase (in matter) is zero. Just like phantom particles in a quantum field, Neo and his opposite may well mysteriously phase in and out of existence merely as a function of probability.

Agent Smith, as has been noted is like a virus in the system. He, being an anomaly, is no longer subject to the rules of the Matrix -- he is a free agent. His unchecked replication -- each time he replicates himself it is almost like demonically possession of human minds in the Matrix -- could only logically conclude with his expulsion or overtaking of every human mind in the Matrix. Certainly this would crash the system and poses a threat to the machines. Neo's purpose -- his design -- may well be to eliminate that threat.

I read somewhere that in the Enter the Matrix game the Oracle says the Neo has touched the source, and now can separate mind from body (or something to that effect). When he goes into the coma at the end of Revolutions, maybe he sent his mind into the Matrix, leaving his body outside.

What if the humans scorched the sky, as Morpheus said, but by accident. The Matrix could have been constructed by humans to be like a gigantic human incubator/suspended animation system to ensure the continuation of the Human Race until the Earth once again became habitable, only the system's normal functioning has gone a little haywire.

Has anyone here seen the movie Dark City from a few years back? It's very matriculated!

"...What if the humans scorched the sky, as Morpheus said, but by accident. The Matrix could have been constructed by humans to be like a gigantic human incubator/suspended animation system to ensure the continuation of the Human Race until the Earth once again became habitable, only the system's normal functioning has gone a little haywire..."

WOW! I haven't thought of that yet!!! That is very cleaver!!!

Just a few points:

1. Earlier in the discussion someone had pointed out that you could see Neo on the Nebuchanezzar on one of the monitors in the Architect's office and offered this as justification for the hypothesis that Zion is a second Matrix, otherwise how could that image be there? I do find the Zion-as-Matrix2 argument compelling, but my desire to plead devil's advocate leads me to ask, why would the machines give away a clue like that, like a villian in some campy thriller that leaves the hero unattended in a baroque (and flawed) execution device? Similarly, someone mentioned little hints dropped by the Counselor which suggested he might be a confederage with the 2nd level matrix. Again, I ask: Why would the machines tip people off?

2. When, according to the "plan", the matrix program is reseeded, what do the people in the pods experience ? A "rewind" ? That seems like it would be the kind of jarring shock that would cause their mind to undergo a reject/crash/core-dump on the order of what may have happened when they rejected the first utopia matrix.

3. The notion that "the body cannot live without the mind" is a curious one. People are kept alive on life support systems when they're brain-dead. Why would the machines not just grow people in petrie dishes with all but the rudimentary brain function disconnected and spare themselves the trouble of the whole matrix thing?

4. Earlier someone postulated that perhaps the machines need people for their "creative quality". That, too, is a curious assertion, as it tends to fetishize flesh as a superior medium for information manipulation. The human brain is a highly sophisticated neural net of connections and is certainly capable of emergent behavior, but so would be a sufficiently complex machine. And, although it's an unromantic way of looking at it, much of the creativity that we experience may just be the result of our complex neural net interacting with the quantum/electrochemical "noise" inherent to matter. There's no reason that the machines couldn't apply the same mechanism to introduce true "creativity" into their own domain. This line of thinking only leads to one place: the soul and God. That would be the only thing that the machines could need from humans (besides the mundane electricity), and although the movies contain much religious allegory, it's unclear that they will take it to that degree of specificity given the decidedly secular tack our society has taken lately, but rather just leave us humans flattered with a general feeling of being somehow unique.

Bulldog

Software depends on three concepts,
assignment
selection
iteration

so,
(while value equals 1){
value = 1;
if( value equals 1)
..do something
else
.. do something

youre theory is quite good, think of how the matrix interpreted Neo

(While Zion.population() > (matrix.population() * 0.01))

Neo = new theOne();
Neo.love = loveForHumanity();

if(Neo.choice())
Door1();
else
Door2();

end loop

Neo was assigned to love humanity but something happened when he met trinity... thus making a choice that would defy what the machine expected...

My biggest question is if the Oracle told Trinity she would be in love with Neo to throw off the whole secure choice of door1 or that if neo would be in love with trinity no matter what...

plus, I am sure there is a symbiotic connection between Neo and Smith. Somehow Neo imprint on Smith also made some imprint of smith on Neo... soo.. I don;t know!

Neo.Architect

I think I have the proof that the Architect, the programs, and the machines DID KNOW which door Neo would choose.

Stay with me on this. One question I stumbled upon is why would Persephone compromise the Matrix? What I mean is that by having Neo kiss her in such a way to make Trinity jealous (the half ass kiss was insufficient, he had to give a real oral performance), she helps to facilitate the choice of the left door. I mean seriously, if you had something to make up to your girlfriend, you would want to get it taken care of.

So if the interpretation of her as the "intuitive program" is accurate, then she would not risk the entire Matrix. She had to be fully aware that what she was doing would push them closer to the left door. Therefore, the "father and the mother of the Matrix" had to be fully aware of the choice Neo would make.

Through further extrapolation, the machines must know what will happen as a result.

Which leaves, in my opinion, Smith as the last unbalanced piece of the equation.

Well i have just finish reading the post about M2 and there are a lot o interesting topics and thoughts that I found them very interesting. I just want to add on to what has been said and maybe we can come up with a very plausibe theory by combining some of the other excellent theories posted on the site.

I think Neo is human in some kind of form but i don't know how it ties in to the plot...but from all the pieces given thus far he is half human half machine so to speak. M2 is about control and choice and we can't forget the programs. I think is the oracle is following her program which is guide the one back to the source to reload the matrix...but she may know how to make it better and neo is the one to do that....Why reload the matix because it is a similation and 1% reject the program....(this is when neo"s purpose comes into play remeber all the programs have a purpose if they fail or become obsolete they can be deleted or return to the source). The purpose of the One is to reload the matrix start it over because if the 1% that rejected the matrix went uncheck it would crash the matrix...which means that would be the end of everyone connected to it human and machine..the architect gives us all the answers...neo has been guided to the architect by the oracle morpheus, trinity so to speak. The merovingians tells neo your here because you were told to do so...the merovogian is a program that makes his on choices right now neo is not making his on choices he being control with the illusion that he is making a choice...that's why merovogian acted like that towards neo because neo still doesn't know exactly what is going yet he doing what he is programmed to do.....that's why at the end he has a revelation it could be another matrix very very possible...the red pill (program) given to him by the oracle open his mind (or upgraded his program so to speak so that he can see what it really is)...rember W brothers use a lot of symbolism the red pill in m1 frees your mind from the matrix and I think the red piece of candy given to neo by the oracle is significant.

What makes Neo The One is very deep...follow me first the matrix was made to perfect the first time and mass humans rejected the program because they weren't allowed to make choice or because they felt they did have a choice...so it was recreated with all the human astrocities...giving a false illusion of choice....the architect tells us that the matrix has been around longer that we think....the machine attempt to make it perfect is throught the mother of the matrix (which is persopone) purpose is to understand human psyche emotions love hope etc...that'w why she wanted to kiss neo to get a better understanding of love which is a part of the human psyche because neo is human recall the fight with the merovogian goons his hand bleed when he block that sword...Neo is the one because he doesn't choose the the door to reload the program so he thinks (the program didn't reload hint The matrix Reloaded) but he choose love the architect says I already know what door you are going to choose I see the the reaction in you right now. I just want to see how the w brothers put it all together... Neo is the one because he Ultimately didn't reboot the system.. the same thing will not happen for a 7th time it is going to be interesting...

Agent Smith was taking out by Neo in the M1 but he was not deleted some of Neo encoded him and some smith encoded on neo. In M1 the purpose of the agent programs is to get the people who reject the program a measure to help keep the matrix from loosing so many people. That was his purpose...after his encounter with Neo in M1 his purpose was taking away by Neo...Agent smith could have been deleted or returned to the source or be a rogue program which he is but has now the ability to replicate him self just like a virus which what he is at this point...Smith is unepected anomaly the system didn't figure on...because if smith goes uncheck he will take over the entire matrix...In M2 he even takes over the new agents of the system. Smith is going to make the humans and machine have a common cause or goal that can only be accomplish through neo.

In my opinion bane helps support the theory of another matrix but what if zion is like the back doors to the matrix meaning it can't registered by the sytem it is connected but it can't detected as the operator in M2 tells us i lost them..even when he goes to speak to the oracle he can't be track....bane will elaborate on this in revolutions...it has to be something to that extent because neo is human....He will probably die in revolutions or become one with smith because that would be the combo of man and machine so to speak that was just an idea i think i have basic it is going to be a trip on how the w brothers fill in the blanks..Alonzo Rogers III

Well I have seen M2 two times...I went back and watched M1 again.....At the end Of M1 agent smith was already deviating from his purpose. When he is interrogating Morpheus he goes into spill about humans be like a virus etc. He also takes his earpiece out so that who ever controls the matrix and the other agents can't hear what he says. Smith stated he wanted out of the matrix this prison were his exact words...that why he needed zion mainframe codes....now in M2 smith says you think you are free but your really not....i think that also adds to zion being another matrix....people say if zion is another matrix why don't machines do this or do that. The matrix is a program where 99% accept it and 1% reject it as i mentioned earlier if the 1%percent went unkchecked it would cash the system...which means that 1% saw the matrix was fake...why free them when you can make them think they are free but they are really not....I think Zion is another matrix that is govern by different rules because these are the people that peeped the matrix so zion would have to be different (more real than matrix)..keep in mind the purpose of the one is really about control over the 1% that reject the matrix...the meaning of the spoon...is a dead a give way.....in M1 there is no spoon that was lesson the boy taught neo that it was not real...when leaving zion he was given another spoon to remind him there is no spoon even here......that's is possible way he stop the squiddies...the one is a basically a reset button...because if enought people left the matrix it would not work because of its rules...zion has different rules but they can manipulated too... i thinks it harder because they use different rules because they don't want you to be in zion and see that is not real.they made it more real than the matrix..M1 is the begining or 1st phases of the reboot m2 he was supposed to reboot the system but he didn't but we know that because the arch knew he would choose to save trinity that in itself could have started the reboot remeber neo says zion will be destroyed 72hrs or whatever then the squidiess come. Revolutions is going to be about that time frame Neo is one i think he will manipulate the matrix as he see fit ...The whole point of the movie is what is real and what is not.....I think key to figuring out the movie is not to get distracted by the other sub plots but to Remeber THERE IS NO SPOON!!!!

A couple things:

1) In the Architect's room, it is helpful not to see the Neos on the monitors as the "other Ones," but instead as the possible responses of Neo himself. Once he chooses his response, we zoom into that time-stream. This is the "best possible world" theory.

2) In "Enter the Matrix," the game which contains at least an hour of real movie footage, Niobe speaks to the Oracle. In this full motion video, The Oracle says: "Neo has touched the source and his mind has separated from his body." When asked if he can be saved, the Oracle says Trinity can save him, but she'll have to fight through hell to do it.

We thought Neo didn't go to the source.

My thought is that he touched "the source" when he reached into Trinity and manipulated her heart. This dovetails with the idea that the Oracle isn't the "intuitive" program that came up with the Matrix solution. Trinity is. Her allegorical name and role has never reached its full potential.

Your Analysis match almost with what i though about "What the matrix is". except in the explanation of the "neo's power outside the matrix" , i think the outside world (zion) and the matrix are both part of a bigger matrix, zion and the one are only programs to control the 0.01% probability !!!
neo just discovered his power outside the matrix, so he realize that he is still in a bigger matrix and the architect has lied to him so he would stay within the *control* of the machines

You are a MAN, You have a WIFE. Grow up please. Rent The Seventh Seal or something. Matrix Regurgitated is a pretentious re-hash by two nerdy guys who don't understand the limitations of their intellect and artistic talent.

I think you are right about Zion being the container for the 0.01% however, i believe that the container is also part of the matrix.

Zion exists only to give the 0.01% (which includes neo) choice.

Thus, neo can control machines in Zion.

The Oracle

Did anyone notice that the candy that was given to Neo by the Oracle looked coincidently similar to the red pill given to Neo by Morpheus in the first film? We do know that the red pill was the pill of choice and was actually designed to disrupt Neo's input-output carrier signals so that he could be located in the real world. Soon after Neo eats the so-called "red pill" candy, Agent Smith shows up. The candy scene seems all too similar to the red pill/blue pill scene in the first movie where Morpheus gave Neo the choice to accept the truth or reject it. The Orcale says, "You just have to make up your own damn mind to either accept what I'm going to tell you, or reject it. Candy?" Soon after Neo eats the candy, Seraph becomes figidy as if he knows Smith is coming and tells the Oracle, "We have to go." If that backdoor can only be accessed through a tumbler and is hiding place for programs facing deletion, why was it so easy for Smith to loacte Neo there unless Smith and the Oracle are working together and the red candy was another part of a trace program just as the red pill was? So I'm not sure if the Oracle can be trusted.

However, the Oracle is facing deletion, which is why she has a protector (Seraph) which is like a firewall. She stated, "usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion." The Oracle is moving around through backdoors via tumblers running from possible deletion. When Neo asked why a program would be deleted, the Oracle states that either the program breaks down or a better one replaces it. Programs either chose to hide there (where she was hiding) or return to the source. I'm assuming that the Oracle isn't breaking down so that must mean that a new Oracle was created to replace her.

There are no scenes in the Revolutions trailer of Neo or Bane in the real world. Maybe Neo isn't in a coma and inside the Matrix. If Neo can "access" his powers outside the matrix, wouldn't he also be able to move in and out of the matrix without actually being "plugged" in? Remember, moving in and out of the matrix is a result of consciousness and his consciousness was "altered" in the process as said by the Architect. Agent Smith says to Neo, "I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed - I'm unplugged - a new man, so to speak, like you, apparently free." If Smith can exist in the matrix unplugged, why can't Neo? Both are free! I believe that Neo and Bane (Smith) will spend the entire movie lying on a cart next to each other battling for the future while both are inside the Matrix. I also believe that Agent Smith who is becoming more emotional (human attribute) and less computer program will at the end experience love and compassion through Neo (just as many sinners were born again and baptised in the name of Christ) and help Neo in the war. Remember, Smith and Neo are "connected." Smith makes too many references to being "binded, connected, the same, etc. I know it sounds far fetched, but I see many surprizes that no one will expect.

Raven

The Councillor is the real traitor and Agent Smith is really on Neo's side!

Someone on this thread said that they had a funny feeling about the councillor. I had the same thoughts and here is why.

1. The Councillor and Neo go through this entire conversation about sleep, about neither of them can sleep and blah..blah.. Other than Trinity, and now the Councillor no one else knew that Neo had trouble sleeping. Yet, when the Oracle meets with Neo inside the Matrix, one of the first things she says is, "I know you're not sleeping." How would she know that? Neo isn't plugged into the system when he's sleeping and he's not sleeping when he's plugged into the system. So how would the Oracle have known that? Also, she says that to Neo after Neo tells the Councillor that he wasn't sleeping peacefully. I think the Councillor is feeding information back to the machines.

2. What does the Councillor love so much about walking to the engineering level, espcially at night while everyone is sleeping? I've been to a couple of engineering levels in different companies and trust me, there's nothing exciting about it. Neo sure as hell didn't seem too impressed either. Espcially if you have no clue how anything works, as the Councillor pointed out.

3. The Councillor seems to have a thing for machines. He speaks quite fondly about the machines and how they work. Councillor says, "You hit it! That's control, isn't it? If we wanted, we could smash them to bits. Although if we did, we'd have to consider what would happen to our lights, our heat, our air." So in essence, he's telling Neo that we need the machines and he's using the water supply, electricty and some two ton crane on the engineering level to try to convince Neo how dependant they are on machines. The classic psyche job.

4. Why did the Councillor go over Lock's head to clear the Nebuchadnezzar for takeoff? He didn't even discuss it with Lock. Normal council protocol? I don't think so. Maybe was his purpose to clear the Nebuchadnezzar for takeoff because he's a program as well. Morpheus did say that when he sees 3 objectives, 3 captains, 3 ships, he do not see coincidence, he saw providence, he saw purpose, and without the Councillor's clearence for takeoff, there would have never been that purpose. It was not the choice of the Councillor to clear the ship, it was a program designed to do what it's designed to do.

5. Pay attention to reflections. In the first Matrix, it was all about mirror images, reflections, doubles, de ja vu. In this movie it's about copies, multiples, more than two, more than three, more than four. In fact, five and six. The Councillor says, once again: "If we wanted, we could smash them to bits." Now, let's skip ahead a little; While Neo is speaking with the Architiect, the same exact words are uttered by one of the "multiple" Neo's on the "multiple" monitors when he shouts, "You can't control me! I'm gonna smash you to bits!" It seems to me that some of what is being said in Zion is being filtered out in other areas of the Matrix.

6. Maybe I'm the only one who sensed that Neo looked and talked in a manner that suggested he didn't care to highly of the Councillor. You would think a councillor, Neo would be very respectful, humble, almost submissive. Yet, Neo hardly looked at him and had this tone like, "yeah, what do you want? Take your old ass back to bed and let me sit here and be a confused-miserable savior alone please."

By the way, Raven's theory on Smith being a "good guy" may just hold water. In the Revolutions trailer, there is a scene where Morpheus is watching the matrix coding and has this surprized look on his face. He says, "HE FIGHTS FOR US!" HE FIGHTS FOR US? Now he's not talking about Neo because Neo has always fought for "us" What's so damn shocking about that? He's talking about Agent Smith which is why Morpheus seems shocked. What other fight is he watching on the monitor, Tyson and Hollyfield?

As for Neo having powers outside the Matrix and using that to solidify the theory that Zion must be part of the matrix. While Zion just may be a part of the Matrix, remember that Neo wasn't yet in Zion when he stopped the sentinals. Also, if you refer back to the first movie, Morpheus says to Neo in the sparring program, "what you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system." Remember, your mind makes it real. If Neo believes in the Matrix and thus can access power, then he can also believe in the real world and access power. I mean, after all, the rules are no different than the rules of a computer system.

xirtam

Topic: Difference beteween human and machine

When the scene with the architect came the whole choice issue arose. After the movie some people that were with me said that Neo was stupid not to just let Trinity "go" and chosen to save Ziona and humanity. And then it hit me, the difference between us and the machines is that we have the ability to love. I was quite moved by my discovery. However, upon thinking about it for a while longer i had another thought, this one was a little less clear cut. I have had some very intense relationships and well the one that meant the world to me ended, as did all the others. I thought to myself, is the fact that we can love the one thing that the machines could never do; or is "love" just an illusion which entraps us and makes us believe that it is the ultimate, while the machines experience it as an illusion, which it may be. Alternatively, perhaps it is a machine made illusion. This would explain why 'love' never seems to be perfect. :-)

I think what we are missing is that the power that Neo displayed at the end of the movie in the real world was NOT some telekinetic magical power. It resembled more of the EMP (electric magnetic pulse) that was used for the squiddies on the ship. If you watch the ending again, it was definitely an electrical charge, not a mental power. That makes me believe that either two things, Neo himself is a machine and can use EMP that resides in his body because he is a machine that can harness energy like the ship (remember that after using this power, Neo collapsed or “shorted circuited.” Also, after suing the EMP on the ship in the first movie, it takes the ship a few minutes to recharge because the ship short circuited.). Or....Neo is transforming into almost pure energy. The Architect did say that the process has altered Neo's consciousness. We always assume that consciousness has to do with only mental capacity. Actually consciousness pertains to awareness whether that is mental, physical, or emotional. We all know that emotion is energy, or energy-in-motion (E=motion). The purest form of energy that moves (or revolves) is love, which is nothing but pure energy. If you remember a movie called, "Ghost In The Machine" as well as the "Lawnmower Man" and "Powder", these physical beings transformed into a form of electrical energy with Powder transforming because of pure unconditional love. All energies have a source in which it derives from and ultimately must return to. The Oracle did say that Neo had the sight in which he now sees things as they really are, energies and coding because he has reached a higher level of consciousness. I think Neo is becoming an energy being and will have to return to the source as pure energy in order to end the war. If anyone has seen the poster for Revolutions, it states in the matrix coding on the poster, "for every beginning there must be an end." That reminds me too much of the old Bible verse, "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" which translates as, returning to the source from which man came. Remember that Christ was born, he died, he resurrected and he transformed into an angelic (energy) being and returned to his father (the architect) in Heaven (the source). We know Neo is changing, changing into what is the question, and changing into pure energy (representation of love) I think is the answer. I think at the end Revolutions, we will see Neo breakdown into energy particles and disappear.

By the way Sath, love IS perfect! It is the one flawless and perfect energy and emotion. Love is harmonious and balanced. If love seems imperfect to us, it is because we are humans whom have learned to place conditions and restrictions on love. Intense relationships have nothing to do with love. A relationship simply means to "relate" to someone. It has nothing to do with love. Love isn't an illusion in so much that it isn't real. It's an illusion in so much that we have never experienced pure love, only what we think is love. Just as Neo never really used his eyes which is why they were hurting him in the first movie. We have never experienced true love, which is why what we think is love is hurting us. In reality, it is dependence, lust, greed, and selfishness all combined to make us think that's love. To die willingly for another is true love. We sometimes say that we are willing to die for someone, but how many of us are really willing to die for someone? I know I’m not at least I believe I am not. Even still, pure love cannot even be measured in a life and death decision. It's even more profound that that! I apologize for preaching to you and sincerely do not mean to, but when you wrote the line," I have had some very intense relationships and well the one that meant the world to me ended, as did all the others," I found that very interesting. Apparently, the relationship did not mean the world to you because you are still alive, the world is still here, and I sincerely doubt you would have sacrificed the world for this "relationship." I think we need to be careful what we claim we love and what we think we are willing to give up for the so-called "illusion" of love. I sympathize with you my friend, but true love would have never allowed the relationships to end.

xirtam

I'm on board with all these theories (Zion's inside another Matrix, the Candy, Smith as a 'good-guy' & Counselor as 'bad,' etc.) and I'm happy to wait until Revolutions to find out, but in the meantime, I NEED A FEW ANSWERS:

I want to know what happened/happens if Neo 6 (or the previous Neo generations) chooses the "save humanity" door. Where is the re-emerging Zion located? In other words, after the machines kill all the humans, are the 24 going to use the same cavern as the new Zion? Won't that seem weird to the 24 if its still furnished or if there's these life-giving water-purifying/electricity/light-producing machines already there or if there's simply some remnants of a human civilization living there before them?

Or if the 24 go to a new cavern in the subterranean tunnels, how d