I perfectly agree with this theory but i beleive is quiet possibly the wachowski brothers are goin to make us throw each one of our theory out the door on november 5.

:>

Anthony, I like your theory #2 as it provides hope. Under theory one, everyone dies no matter what. This bums me out too much. ;)

I think either theory 2 is correct, as it makes a better story.

Another theory that could be is what I initially thought when leaving the theatre: that there is a matrix within a matrix. Maybe this has been brought up in earlier comments, but the way I was thinking is that there are several layers of matrices for protection from The One making it out. I guess this theory is similiar to your theory 2, but instead of the matrices lying in parallel, this would entail matrices lying within each other (parents and children matrices). The One could not go from Matrix 1 to Matrix 3 without first going through Matrix 2. I think in the third movie we will get to see the real world, and it will be stupifying. But then they will leave us hanging in the end by casting doubt on even this reality :)

I love the calculator and I think it help proves a lot of things along with your theory.

It is assumed from dialogue in the movie that Zion currently holds 250,000 people. And from your calculations, after Zion reaches 250,000, the rejection rate gets out of control very quickly. This is supported by a statement Morpheus makes: "We have seen more people freed from the matrix in the past six months than we have in the past six years." So it would make sense that around 250,000, the machines seek out and destroy Zion.

Your calculations also show that it takes about 119 years for Zion to get up into the 250,000 mark. This supports the "fighting machines for 100 years" statement. It can be assumed that there was 19 years between when Zion started over again and when the people of Zion started fighting the machines.

But ultimately, I disagree with the matrix within a matrix theory because it's just so... cliché. After all the talk and discussion the first two movies have caused, it would be lame if we could just sum the whole thing up with, "Well, it was just matrix in a matrix. Everything thing that we thought was a lie was lie that was a lie." Know what I mean?

Hopefully, the W. Brothers will surprise us all with the ending of Revolutions

I personally dislike the matrix within a matrix theory, but not because I think it's cliche, like Scott.

I don't like it because after you state that the apparent real world is another matrix, all further discussion becomes pointless.

If the real world is a matrix, then who made it? Certainly not machines, or at least not like we'd think. In fact, if there is a second matrix, then the whole story about the war would almost certainly be a lie. Why would the creators make the second matrix just like the real world, if the made the first matrix so different from it? It's more likely that neither of the two are a reflection of the real world.

Why did they make it? Probably not to control a power supply of people. Why would the creators supply the people in the second matrix with the truth?

From there, anything is possible. The sky's the limit. And whats worse, all the clues we got from the first two movies become useless.

Damoz, I think you and I are agreeing with the fact that if it is a matrix within a matrix, all of our discussion is pointless. So it is cliche and kills all the great philosophy/plot discussions we've been having for the past month.

Holy crap. Has it been a month?

I strongly suggest that The second Matrix doesn't exist and the reason that Neo can affect the elements in the real world is some kind of energy control and mind power he has reached with the virtual world control and now has the maturity to bring it to reallity!!! I think revolutions won't answer as many questions as we think it could but (its just too short to have it clear in 3 episodes)... hoping it gets more and more interesting!!!

I think the matrix within a matrix idea makes sense, is the case, and further, improves the philosophy rather than detracts from it.

I've seen a few posts that go into the mythology of the characters namesakes: Morpheus (not what he seems, can look/act like any man), Persephone (Queen of the underground, plants 6 seeds, the first five of which bring winter, the 6th brings spring), etc. These can't be ignored.

Likewise, I think it is valid to consider that there are contemporary mythologies incorporated as well in the form of science fiction (Asimov's laws of robotics, etc.).

These, and other threads can be found at:
http://homenetz.com/matrixreloaded/

Here is a link to the post that I made to that discussion:
http://homenetz.com/matrixreloaded/viewtopic.php?t=79 (Post by meme_pool, Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:53 pm Post subject: Laws and purpose).

Summary: the enslavement of humans by machines for electrical power is a lie made up by the machines to induce us see them as equals by experiencing firsthand the complete wrongness of slavery, and to enter into a voluntary partnership with them. Thus would dawn a new eden with humankind as Adam, and with machines as Eve.

My take on this is that there is no singular correct interpretation of the movie. The movie is an actual allegory for life. There is no singular meaning of life. We are all asleep to just how unaware we are of the world around us. This movie shakes us up and rattles our brains and still we cling to "but they told us 'x', so it must be true." How the hell the W bros got this past Time W. (bros) ;), even given the kung fu, is beyond me. This movie is a time bomb lodged deep in the human psyche intended to blow our concept of civilization to smithereens.

I agree with the point of view expressed above that if all is just the Matrix, Zion being just another delusion, then all that has happened was pointless, needless drama, and takes away from the films. We must remember that the first purpose of the brothers was to make a good movie, the philosphy being bent as needed to fulfill that purpose.

And I believe if Zion is just another Matrix then any calculations about "real" time are meaningless since space and time in that virtual world would be a delusion and not have to be in harmony with space and time in a real physical world, only give the illusion of it. In dreams we may dream detailed dreams that seem to last for a long time, but in actuality are very short REM periods of sleep. Our brains are functioning differently and real time as well as real space is not in sync with our waking realities. The Matrix is the same as shown by those who have discovered that there is a Matrix and bend seemingly physical laws. So if all is a Matrix, then the math and laws of physics for any calculation that apply to the "real" world don't apply, they only have to appear to apply.

Alls I know is that they better have the Smiths split up into factions and start fighting each other in the third movie. That'd be damn cool.

I think the matrix within a matrix theory is dead on, and is one that I have esposed since I saw teh flick the first time (1/4). As far as cliche, well, the whole movie incorporates myriad, ancient philosophies, so we are likely to be familiar with many, if not all of them. I can't remember where exactly in Matrix 2 this was said, but I think I remember a statement about a "dream within a dream." (anyone else recall this?). And what about Neo's conversation with the older counselor in the engineering room? The old man pontificates teh nature and necessity of the machines, stating he doesn't know whow they work, just that they do. This could have been an off-hand comment, but seeing how symolism-laden the movie is, I don't believe this statement was made for the purpose of establishing that the old man is "technology-illiterate." Pls, a matrix inside a matrix would allow further control by the machines; allowing the .01% to go free in the Real would present too many potential inconsistencies (chaos theory/ entropy); by containing the Zionites withing another matrix would keep them in a controlled enviroment, thus allowing the machines to design environments to manipulate the "freed minds" and minimizing the amount of random probability (for example, what ifthe machines just couldn't find Zion. Architect said they get more efficient at destroying Zion, but again, even the most remote of possibilities exists that there could be a particualr well concealed zion if it did in fact exist outside of another matrix.
The Architect providing jsut enough info/bullshit to manipulate Neo is a great theory, and I had not thought of that. Also, I am not 100% on the Matrix within a Matrix theory, but a lean more heavily in that direction simply *because* it would also incorporate more traditional ideologies.
This is like Philip K. Dick multiplied by a factor of 10. I love it!

Again, if it is a second matrix, then the machines probably don't control it. The war is probably a lie. Why make the second matrix like the real world if the first is so different from it?

I have a theory that has been inspired by what I’ve read here. It’s kind of lengthy. Let me ask two questions, and seek to answer them with the theory.

#1 Why did the Agent Smith program exit the matrix?

#2 What did Neo mean when he said, “Wait, something’s different”?

First, two premises.

1. In one sense, the human brain is a computer program, or perhaps better, an operating system.

The commonality of a human with the computer is this ability to receive input, process, and return information; in other words, to interface. This is not to say that a human is nothing more than electrical impulses plus the physical media required to transmit and maintain it, but that in this way we are compatible with computers. Hence the matrix was created to capitalize on this commonality between computer and human.

2. A human never goes “in” the matrix.

He or she connects to it via some form of modem (in our terminology). I don’t think this needs to be proven, just stated, but I’ll make the case anyway. There is much made of signals, hard lines, access points, etc. throughout the movies. Remember the little metal thing doesn’t somehow transfer their brain into the matrix. It makes a physical connection between a human and a computer system on a ship (e.g. Nebuchadnezzar, Osiris, etc.) or some computer at Zion. Then, that computer makes a modem connection into the Machine’s computer network, and interfacing begins. It’s a COMLINK, not a metaphysical phenomenon. It is described by the following components and interfaces ( designated by }-{ ):

Human brain }-{ Ship’s Computer }-{ Ship’s Modem }-{ Machines’ Modem }-{ Machines’ Computer }-{ Machines’ program

Remember that the humans can monitor what is going on inside the matrix when they are connected, Neo bleeds when Smith hits him really hard repeatedly, if you die on the outside you die on the inside (and vice versa because the “mind makes it real), etc. It’s the human brain that is processing information, making decisions, etc., and it does it while being connected. There’s no release or transmission of the mind “into” the matrix. The reason for requiring an “exit” is never explained, but there are computer protocols today based on two connections, one primary connection for communication, and a second connection for meta-communication, like to interrupt the program at either end if necessary. This is probably what the exit terminal is about.

Anything experienced in the matrix, then, is nothing more than interfaces between programs. Neo interfaces with a gun program, a brick wall program, a human being program, an “Architect” program etc. For example, a déjà vu is explained in the first movie as happening when the Machine changes the structure of a building—a window changed into a wall, which is how Mouse bit it.

THEORY: After the meeting with “The Architect”, Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, and the others who entered the matrix to destroy it, believed that they returned normally to “the real world”. However, they did not. Instead they returned to another form of matrix, created by Agent Smith.

Now, back to the questions.

#1 Agent Smith was a major character in the first movie. We knew who he was and what he was about. In the second movie, it was a little confusing—by design. We are led to believe for a while in Reloaded that Agent Smith was somehow a rogue program banished to some sort of demilitarization zone (DMZ) where bad programs go. But at the end of the movie, when they are in the core of the matrix, there he is. Agent Smith’s purpose and access never changed, his method did. Going back to the first movie, Smith said, “I need to get out of here, and in this mind is the key.” His purpose was to “get out.” Smith explained in Reloaded that there was some kind of connection made when Neo exploded him, something he “picked up”. Neo means new. The thing that is different about Neo from every other entity in the movie is his ability to create, to "genesis" (even the Architect, lying or not, admits that the function of Neo is to start a new Zion). Morpheus (changer) has the ability to convert people from “the matrix” to “the real world”. Neo has the ability to create. To be sure, Neo is the Christ figure—he’s referred to as “Jesus Christ” by Troy; he resurrects Trinity (albeit in the matrix, but even this is unheard of). And look what Smith can now do…somehow…he can create new Smiths. (This is not the same as Neo, but it would make sense that through the interface of Neo’s mind with the Smith program, the Machine could have gleaned something about creating (after all, they studied humans ad nauseum to create the matrix.)

The Wachowskis didn’t gratuitously add this just so they could make a scene with Neo fighting a hundred new Smiths—have faith—and also realize that there’s not enough film time to throw anything unnecessary in (witness The Animatrix). Smith version 2 is a means to an end. He is truly desperately trying to “get out.” And this megagenesis drives that point home. He creates more and more Smith 2’s in a desperate attempt to hit the big one and “get out”. What was Smith’s goal in the first movie? Get Morpheus. Why? Because he had and they wanted the access codes to Zion’s mainframe. Why?

If they’re just going to destroy Zion, and they “have become exceedingly efficient at it,” then why do they want access codes? Also, remember that in movie 1, Neo is a menace to them. Morpheus is the prize. They kill Neo in the end because he’s in the way (and because he stayed to fight them when Morpheus and Trinity got out), not because he was the One.

Now the Machine says it’s not about Morpheus, but about Neo. And they used to be concerned with getting into Zion’s mainframe, but now they’re going to destroy it? Are they fickle? Obviously, the fog of war is thick here, because the things the Machine says don’t add up. Perhaps the first movie was all a ruse. Perhaps they wanted them to think it wasn’t about Neo in order to puppeteer the events leading to Neo’s meeting with “The Architect”. Some people have wound up here and admitted that this would make futile any of our discussions and theories and the movie stupid, so I, like they, reject it. [Side note: interesting human phenomenon that rejects the futile, refuses to accept it]

So, why? Smith wants to “get out”, but what does that really mean for a computer program? That struck me as odd in the first movie. Get out? Would he just cease to exist? What existence does a computer program have outside of a computer? “Get out” of the matrix is double-speak for “get in” to Zion’s mainframe! This is what he was programmed to do, and though he had been frustrated for a long time (a seemingly endless loop), he succeeded in Reloaded. But it was not in the mind of what’s-his-name: he stepped off in the humans’ computer before the connection was severed.

#2 Neo knew something was different. It was. When he and his squad thought they came out, they really were still inside the matrix (or a matrix). The Smith program, like a virus, had infected Zion’s mainframe and subsequently all or some of the ships. It then used the humans’ own computers as a matrix (the humans already had the technology: that’s how they connected with the matrix anyhow, and how they did all their training programs). Note that the only humans we see at the end of the movie are soldiers (ones who would have been on ships with matrix plugs). THIS was the dream that they could “never wake up from” that Morpheus talked about in movie 1. And how would they really know if they were awake or asleep? Except they once again underestimated Neo (prior references are the Oracle, “you’re cuter than I imagined” and the Architect, “Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others,” and of course Morpheus reminds us that they did so when the agents let him go in 1). He knew he was inside a matrix, and he exerted his overcoming power that he has when inside a matrix by stopping the sentinels. This was not supernatural. It was supermatrix.

Issues with the theory/Questions for movie 3

A. What about the guy infected by Agent Smith? Wasn’t he inside that guy in Zion? We’re never told that in the movie. We just know that that guy has a strange look about him. He knows Smith got to him and something has happened to him. Remember that Neo and Morpheus also experienced the “Smithing” process, and Neo said it felt like dying. I don’t think that guy was “possessed” by Smith, but he was tortured by what he wonders has happened and perhaps is having an identity crisis. If Smith were inside him, wouldn’t he have tried to kill Neo? Every time we’ve seen him before, this is what Smith’s trying to do. He did have a knife in his hands, but perhaps he was going to kill himself. We don’t know about that.

B. If Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus are stuck in the new matrix, how will they ever get out? Since there is no “exit” terminal mechanism built in to the ships or Zion’s mainframe, how will they ever wake up? Maybe someone could rescue them, but most of the others think they were destroyed in the matrix or are stuck in there somehow. I think this may be where Kid’s Story comes in. Kid was never fully explained in Reloaded, but his significance may be, as we know from The Animatrix, that he discovered self-substantiation, to Trinity and Neo’s surprise. This may be their salvation in Revolutions, and may be why we were introduced to Kid in Reloaded.

C. Why not a matrix within a matrix or a parallel matrix? It makes sense that the machines could have created a one-off matrix for all the people who wouldn’t accept the first one. To me, this is a plausible theory, but a 2nd matrix that has existed from the beginning but has been concealed seems to complicate things too much for this stage in the trilogy, and it’s really conjecture. It would have to be both acknowledged and resolved in the 3rd movie if it’s indeed the case. And the only reason we’ve theorized along this line is because what we saw Neo do at the very end of Reloaded and then he passed out, never to explain his actions.

Also, didn’t it seem like they were being lured to "The Architect"? They kept asking everyone how they knew where to go, how to make keys for doors that no one is even supposed to know exist, and the only answer they get is, “it’s my purpose”. To me, it’s very plausible that the whole chain of events that led to their encounter with "The Architect" was entrapment. They were luring Neo and his friends to take these mysterious doors, which was really a bait & switch that enabled the Machine, through what the Smith program did, to intercept them on their way out. Ironically, Neo was a computer hacker in his persona in the matrix, and really every time they enter the matrix it’s a hack. Now, the Machine has turned the tables, using computer hacking techniques to gain control of their computer.

In closing, let me say that this is very thought-provoking thread. I don’t claim that this theory is the ONLY theory that makes sense. If you disagree with it or have thoughts, I’d love to consider them. Also, I really like the Matrix Calculator. It took some talent to do that.

Scott, can you explain who Kid was exactly? I've seen Reloaded twice and I've seen Animatrix once, but I can't recall the story behind him. If you, or anyone could refresh me I'd appreciate it.

*I meant Rock, not Scott, sorry, I'm asleep, it's 1:00 am.

I agree with the idea that the real world is just another matrix to control the .1% of people that rejected the first matrix. In Matrix Reloaded they talk alot about "choice" and "cause and effect", thats what I think the matrix within matrix is for, control and tighter security. But did anyone notice at the end of Reloaded Trinity witnessed Neo stopping the sentinels, but she didn't say anything. When asked what happened she said "I don't know". So could it be possible that Trinity is a program in the 2nd matrix to help control Neo, cause I think that maybe The Architect wanted Neo to go through that door.

So did anyone notice Trinity ignoring the fact that she seen Neo stop the sentinels?? Let me know

In response to Jonathan,

Kid, a.k.a. Michael Karl Popper, is the kid that worships Neo, wants to carry their bags for them, and who Neo cannot seem to shake. He is somewhat annoying to Neo in Reloaded. Kid asserts that Neo "saved" him. Neo asserts that Kid saved himself. What the Animatrix revealed is that kid "self-substantiated" (Trinity's words), i.e. no blue pill, no conversion from the matrix to the real world. Instead, he was delivered somehow through faith.

In Kid's deliverance, Kid is writing "Neo, Trinity, get me out of here" on his notepad. Neo speaks to Kid over a cell phone tellilng him to "Get out, get out now" when agents come for him. Kid literally takes a leap of faith from a building after saying, "Neo, I believe; I know it wasn't a dream." He "dies" and wakes up on the operating table with Trinity and Neo discussing his release.

Interesting - this is probably more Christian allegory where a person is saved by faith in a person - the Christ. Kid's funeral appeared to be a standard Christian graveside service, which could explain his desire to make Neo his Christ, even though Neo doesn't want to be that. Neo is true again to the Reluctant One role - he seems to want to hope against hope that he's not the Messiah: I don't know why the Wachowski brothers made Neo so reluctant, except perhaps to keep the movie from moving too fast and to keep the other characters relevant, At any rate, it's all good, and I'm sure their goal will all be clear in Revolutions).

Bud,

You may be right. It's all fair game if they're in a matrix in those last few moments of the movie. But also consider that it was just a few moments. Perhaps Trinity was in shock or denial about what she thinks she saw. Remember, also, that she had just been resurrected by Neo--what kind of a mind job is that? Further, she doesn't know if Neo is going to make it (he's out cold at the end of the movie): this is the love of her life, and maybe she's finding herself not so worried about whats and hows (as we are), but more about the love of her life that she may never talk to again.

But what if you're right? And more, what if Neo being out at the end of the movie was by his own choice? What if he's already out of the 2nd matrix? Maybe Neo was the only one in the 2nd matrix at the end of the movie--Morpheus, Trinity, and the others were simulations (he's the only one who took that mystery door, right?).

Interesting thought.

the matrix within a matrix makes sense for many reasons: another is that when you sleep, the program is able to reprogram you (as was seen in the matrix when neo got the bug planted in his stomach adn then "woke up" in bed)...maybe thats why neo "hasnt been able to sleep" in the "real world." hes got the feeling something is wrong...

one thing I dont know if anyone mentioned yet (too lazy to read thru all the posts!) is at the end of Reloaded, when NEO stops the sentinels.

The theory is that he has powers outside the matrix.

I can beleive that, but another thing to ponder is the fact that it might be a coincidence....because at the same moment he stuck his hand out to "STOP!" the sentinals, the other ship appeared. I think that maybe the other ship used one of their EMP's (or whatever their weapon is called to stop the sentinals) at the same moment NEO tried to stop them...and at the same time he got shocked by the weapon and THAT is why he is in a coma.

At the very end of the movie, they mention nothing about what just happened.

Something to think about.....(lemme know how dumb it sounds!)

Here's something nobody on this board seems to have added into the discussion: The video game. While for the most part the game and the majority of the video added into it were fairly mediocre, Enter the Matrix was directed by the Wachowski brother, given the full credibility of the Matrix universe, and to me that makes it part of the canon.

For those of you who haven't played the game it is essentially a two-path, third person action game. You run around and kick ass in slow motion while going around in the Matrix accomplishing tasks and so forth. Ever wonder how Niobe got her hands on those intelligence reports on the machines digging down to Zion? Or what she was doing up until she saved Morpheus' ass on the back of that semi? Well that's pretty much the gist of the game. You get to see the events of the movie through a different perspective.

For me the real draw to the game was the live action video done with the real stars, during the filming of Reloaded and Revolutions. It's mostly just stuff with Niobe and Ghost, a bit here and there with Niobe and Lock, but the MOST interesting part, and the reason I bring any of this up at all (...finally...I know I ramble) is that we get our first glimpse of the (new) oracle. I inject "new" in there because as you may be aware, Gloria Foster passed away during filming before she had completed any of her work for Revolutions, or apparently for the game.

Since she obviously still has an integral part to play in the next movie they couldn't just kill her off or something, so they pull a bit of a "sorry I can't be here in the face you recognize" bit. The fact that a different actress is playing the part isn't what's important in this context, however. If we believe that she is still the Oracle, and not some trick on us all, then I can just stop rambling again and move back to my real point.

Near the end of each characters' storyline (you can play as either Niobe or Ghost and get a slightly different path and a few different cutscenes) they will encounter the Oracle. When you encounter the Oracle as Niobe you hear a very interesting thing. The Oracle tells Niobe that Neo is trapped somewhere between the real world and the matrix. Now she doesn't use quite those words. I don't have a transcript of the conversation and I haven't watched that clip sincle I play the game in May...but that was the gist of it.

Now obviously this has implications on the whole "Matrix in a Matrix" thing. The oracle tells Niobe that she will have a role to play in helping Neo find his way back, or some such thing. This all seems to indicate to me that Neo is somehow both connected to the Matrix and in the real world (perhaps through his connection with Smith) which is how he has control over the machines in the real world.

I suppose one could argue that Neo is not connected to the real world and the Matrix at the same time, but rather the Oracle means that he is connected to both the inner and outer matrix, but as others have indicated, that's sort of cliched and anti-climactic.

If there is one overwhelming reason why the whole double matrix concept can't work...it's that we're all expecting it. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who never believed that Reloaded could have the same shock value that the first Matrix movie had. Yet obviously everyone here was pretty floored by the whole Architect thing. I think we need to give the Brothers a little more credit...they may yet have another surprise in store for us.

well those theories are pretty good, but i think this when neo says somthin is different he has awakened to a higher sense of conciousness and has realised that the matrix is layered. I also think that the architects speat is structured to control "the ones" as there is no possible proof to what he says i do not believe that "the levels of survival we can tolerate" is tru as the sun is no longer a viable power source. Machines are efficient to the max so the layered matrix works as they are trying to minimise the rejection rate. But i have a question if neo is not a program gone bad like mero, twins and the oracle why would his code need dissenimation why would a human need dissemination? Ageant smith is also a rogue program and has ascended to the next level of the matrix why is he alive and the rest dead because the matrix tries to kill these programs unless this is a fail safe to kill "the one" who disobeys the architect.
If it makes no sense sorry i tried!

I like to think of the whole "Smith in the Real World" concept as more of an overwriting of psyche than as something akin to how agents take over human bodies in the Matrix. We have found out that something of Neo was copied over onto Smith giving him his "freedom" and new abilities.

We know from the first matrix that Neo can sort of jump inside a program and tear it apart...so perhaps that is part of what was copied onto Smith from Neo. In combination with his ability to take over human bodies in the Matrix, he now has this ability to infest another program and copy himself over it. In the case of a human this means re-writing part of their brain (in the same way we see alpha-pattern hacking in the first movie for example). Clearly Smith hasn't fully replaced the original host mind in this way, but seems to have caused it to go sort of crazy...a sort of schizophrenia(sp?). I believe this is what we are seeing when we see the host cutting his hand...a sort of battle between two minds. The host is trying to "cut" smith out of him...or perhaps Smith is deliberately causing the host body harm to torture it.

If nothing else...we know that Smith is doing something he isn't supposed to be doing. The very first time we see two Smiths on screen together one says to the other "It is going exactly as before." and the other says "Well...not exactly" seeming to imply that having 100 agent smith's running around was never a part of previous instances of the matrix...so clearly he is going to be instrumental.

I think the "Smith Anomaly" is enough to throw both of the theories on this page out of whack. Clearly something is happening differently than the Architect has planned, so Zion can't simply be wiped out and then rebuilt as in the first theory...and in terms of my argument (if you can call it that) above, Smith being present in the "Real World" does not necessarily imply a layered structure.

Matt,

I haven't played the video game, but I'm very intrigued by what the Oracle apprently tells Niobe there. I'm not pushing the "matrix within a matrix" theory. I don't know if you've read my prior post, but I have theorized that Smith got into the humans' computers and reprogrammed them in order to trap Neo (and perhaps the others who accompanied him on the trip to the Architect). This is why Neo could stop the Sentinels in the last scenes. It's not that his intramatrix powers work extramatrix now. He was in a false matrix (that he got stuck in when he took that other door from the architect). Otherwise, there is only one matrix; Zion really exists; there really is a war, an antagonist, and a protagonist; there are no layers, etc. Do you think what the Oracle in the video game seems to be saying jives with the Smith-hijack theory I posted above?

It is very interesting to see that how many of us are looking for the answer. The answer of the same question, Neo was looking for "What's the matrix?" May be its the time when matrix is overloaded and our freinds/enemies are calling us from zion and Matrix is about to be reloaded.

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but the "matrix within a matrix" theory was what I got out of it too (though many will argue the point).

One clue which wasn't mentioned in your article (or I missed completely) was Neo's meeting with the Oracle. She offered him a piece of candy, which he accepts and puts away. She unwraps hers and says something to the effect of "I love candy" and the camera shows it just as she pops it in her mouth.

The candy is the red pill.

Of course, it could have just been a hot tamale... but I think they were showing that the red pill didn't do anything that was out of machine control. It's just "candy" (and again reinforces the whole "choice" gambit).

Tone, I didn't notice that before, and I've seen Reloaded twice, but now that you mention it, you're exactly right. That, like you said, might reinforce the "choice" issue. That might also explain why Kid was able to self-substantiate, if it is only a choice, and no actual "freeing" by someone in the "real world" is necessary.

I liked all the above comments. There are so many people who got thinking about forgotten topics like reality and consciousness etc. due to these movies, thanks to Wbros for that.

Just one question, if someone knows. Am i right in thinking that at the very end of the movie, they are somehow copying the data from Neo's brain into someone else's brain.
Thanks.

Here's another bit of extra-movie information that might be useful. Anyone watched The Animatrix? There are a few things in there that also seem to me to contradict the layered matrix theory.

Without giving anything away, there's one part in the last feature on the disc called Matriculated wherein you see a group of humans that live on or near the surface trying to capture machines and win them over to the humans' side. I won't give away the plot of the story because I think it's very good and everyone should see it for themselves, but there is a bit of dialogue that is relevant to this conversation. Something to the effect of:

Guy 1: "How do you know you're not still dreaming?"
Guy 2: "I know what it feels like to be dreaming and this isn't it."

Obviously that isn't verbatim, but it's fairly close.

To me this makes a lot of sense. I think we need to get away from this whole "The Matrix is present day earth" kind of concept. Sure it LOOKS like the present day...but there is some fundamentally different feeling associated with being in that world as opposed to how they feel in the "real world". It's sort of a dreamy, hazy state. Most people walk through it like zombies, as we can tell in the first movie. So unless this is an induced symptom of the "inner" matrix, the "outer" matrix would feel the same way, and everyone would see right through it.

Plus here's something else that just came to mind. The Architect says to Neo "99 percent of subjects accepted the program so long as they were given a choice"

Presumably this choice is whether to live a comfortable life in the matrix or go live in the center of the earth in Zion. What choice are the Zionites given?

I'm sorry to say that I don't have the time to read all these posts right this second, so what I am about to say may or may not have been stated before.

Without stating what I think about the double matrix theory, let me just put out this idea. Remember the tag line of The Matrix?

"There is no spoon"

In reloaded, in Zion, in the "real world", what do we see? A spoon. Not only a spoon, but a bent spoon. At the time I never gave this a second thought, but now that I think about it, if there are 2 Matricies, perhaps Neo was not the first to discover the second..

I'd just like to throw this out there. In the 1st movie why does Smith kill Neo? And why is he surprised when he comes back to life? Shouldn't he know that Neo is the One, and as such know that the One has to go to the source? His surprise at Neo's ressurrection shows he really thought Neo was dead. This would have really messed things up, as the One's purpose seems to be to go to the source. Also, if Smith was merely acting as a rogue, why didn't the other agents with him try to stop him? Is this merely indicating a lack of concensus among the machines? Or something more?
I don't know if this means anything or what, but there it is.

Daretwodan -
There's a quick and easy answer to why Neo had to die in the first Matrix. Remember Neo's meeting with the Oracle? What does she say to him. He's waiting for another life before he becomes The One. Maybe it's a bit cheesy, but it's certainly one way to look at a "next life".

As for why Smith was surprised. Well the pragmatic answer is probably simply that there was no second or third movie planned at the time, and they weren't concerned with Smith's reaction fitting into a larger scheme at the time. I know they say they've had the whole thing mapped out from the beginning...but that probably isn't including minute scripting details like that.

and Dorothy eventually got back to Kansas......
"but you we're there, and you,and you"

I go with the matrix within a matrix theory. Watched the film tonight for the first time, ( personal things going on), watched the first film umpteen times, ( personal things going on).

There is a Zion, and a lovely place it is. The Zion we see at the moment is the sort of post-apocalyptic homeland we'd imagine. The original Matrix has been in existance for closer to 700 years than the 100 that the humans believe, Earth has recovered from the humans setting the sky on fire. This timegap is because of the many improved versions that the Architech,(Bill Gates), has developed. Many instances of'The One', have failed to choose the right door. This is why after choosing, Neo feels something is different, and is able to destroy the sentinels.
I think that in the next installment, the Matrix mainframe will be bridged, Zion as we know it will cease to exist, ( who'd wanna live there anyway?), and they'll all enter a new Utopia. Grass, trees, proper food, etc.

Obviously, Agent Smith is part of the matrixed Zion, what happens now?

It's up to you to decide!

Steve

Here's a thought. If they're really in a matrix within a matrix...then how the hell will they ever get out? Assuming the actual matrix has them inside structures like we saw in the first movie (the little red pods)...then how will anyone ever get out of there. I don't think it's quite right to assume that the machines will be nice enough to come and unplug every single person that wakes up and let them go down the little water slide into the scummy water.

The only possible outcome I see happening with the whole layered matrix scenario is that everyone is going to die..and who the hell wants to watch that happen in a movie.

I find it far more likely that there will be some strage explanation for Neo's new abilities in the real world (some sort of big shocker to the audience...one of those "whoa" moments) and Neo will go back into the Matrix to deal with Smith...talk to the Oracle...and maybe confront the Architect again. The machines don't know what is going to happen now. None of the other One's have ever chosen this path. Somehow they'll save Zion and maybe even find some way to gradually bring everyone out of the matrix. I think it should be interesting to see if they have a plan for unplugging the entire Matrix. How are they going to feed, clothe and shelter all those billions of people. No society could possibly handle that kind of growth. That's why I think they're all going to die, and all that will be left will be zion.

I think another point that proves that zion is in the matrix as well is the fact that smith is able to cross over into banes body. if it were not the matrix then this shouldnt be possible. another hint is the spoon given to neo before he gets back on the ship. you can take it either way you want. the boy was freed and the spoon says im here, or there is no spoon. Another thing to think about is neo is not human in both matrixes, of Course he is a program like the oracle and the key maker. what if the person or thing that put the program in is actually the real neo in the real world, stupid concept but hey its a change from whats been posted

Well First Of All I Wud Like To Say Iz I Disagree With This Theory.Becuz If You Play The Enter The Matrix Game You Get More Insight Of The Reloaded Movie
#1 In the game the oracle appears to be another actress ( gloria foster died after completing the second movie ) and she says that looks doesn't matter as she iz still the same person she used to be.
#2 She tells us that neo was to go into the source but neo didnot and he jacked back into that matrix this has made neo's mind stuck into the matrix and the real world ( this explains neo stopping the sentinels)She tells niobe only trinity can bring him back to the real world and free his mind and to do that she will have to go thru hell and she niobe/ghost that she will have to make a choice of either helping neo or not !
#3 The architect mentions the mother of the matrix (neo says The Oracle and the architect says PLEASE as if in a disagreeing manner) The mother of the matrix will undoubtely be Persephone As she iz the one who discovers the aspects of human pysche by kissing them To know about there love and emotions ( she kisses neo in the movie Niobe and Ghost in the game )
So as we all know we saw the first part being birth of the hero the second one the life of the hero and the third will undoubtely be about death (as keanu reeves as stated that before and so has the wachowski brothers)
Things we have to find out about in the revolutions and look out for :
The neo and agent smith connection and its purpose?
How the fight is going to take place in the real world ? (The matrix system will not be destroyed in the end of the revolutions as we all know that The matrix online game will take place inside the matrix in 2004)
What is the one going to do ? (After the one being stuck into between the worlds and how iz trinity going to help ? )
What is the role of the wierdo with freaky eyes and teeth (appears in the revolutions trailor and enter the matrix game and says "72 hours! thats how long zion surviived the last time")
And many more answers are supposed to be in revolutions and Many More Questions !
So we all have to hold our breath till nov 5 as it iz already been said "It Is Going To Be One Hell Of A Ride"!!!! (We will see a lot of niobe in Revolutions along side Ghost)

I liked your theory. It made very good bedtime reading and plus answered a few questions that I was curious about myself after I saw The Matrix Reloaded several hundred times. Your theory makes sense, but if it was all true, we'd have to ask ourselves what is that Agent Smith/Bane type human in Zions role?
I think the rivalry with Smith and The Architect/Matrix are completley different. Smith was designed by the Matrix but when something of Neo copied onto him I'm sure it was ability of choice, thus Smith is now his own kind of machine entity with his own control. Not sure how Neo's fight with smith will turn out or with the Archtitect. Its not likely that the humans will become aware that Neo is a false hope and then all of a sudden refuse this new program/matrix/zion that they have accepted for who knows how long

1) The matrix within a matrix theory seems cheap, true.

2) Perhaps the explanation is that the W. Bros are talking about our reality here as well. Neo can control things outside the matrix because the nature of reality (in the movie and here) is much like the matrix (all of the references to Buddhism make this quite probable... even their references to Christ point out the transcendental unity between the religious truths - this world (reality) is illusory). Neo has realized (again) what the Spoon Boy tried to tell him. There is no spoon. Anywhere.

I would be satisfied if that ended up being the message of the Matrix. If it is simply a matrix within a matrix or some cryogenic dream, I'll be most disappointed.

ANSWER/SIMULATION: The Matrix Trilogy is all about the perception of reality and simulations. The idea of God was that religious icons are the source of God’s presence. Think about Genesis! When God is only felt through these icons it is probable, at best, that God even exists. The icon, or symbol (the movie being watched through your eyes!!) , actually becomes omnipotent at this point in consciousness. However, the conscious battles with the simulacra so that at the end one comes to nihilism.
In that frame of thinking God does not exist if His presence is not felt. The idea of God is a creation of mankind, who is seeking to fill the emptiness within. One of the characters says, “I was looking for an answer,” and it was then that she became enlightened about the Matrix. Once nihilism is embraced, separated from God and independent of His laws, the self creates his own reality as creator and god. Which therein lies the revolution! It will leave you pondering if this is your reality or just another simulation...is the matrix your matrix or another concieved matrix made to control you?

THE BEGINNING IS THE END!

"The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version."

1010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010

2:1

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

If there exist multiple matrices in parallel, this could be another spiritual reference:

since
a matrix of pure joy = garden eden

it must be that
a matrix of despair = hell

(christian, muslim)

The Source = Nirvana

This may be a very silly question as no one else has mentioned anything in this line at all...

But, why is it that Morpheus & co feel the need to free everyone via the matrix? Somehow to me it would make more sense if they tried to fight the machines in the "real world" (which I don't believe is real now anyway).

Sure it could be that their technology weren't advanced enough to fight the sentinels but of how much use is it to try to fight in a virtual reality where nothing is real anyway? Could be that they were misled into believing this would work by the Oracle - but why not even a thought of this? I mean realistically, how can you fight a "system" when you're in it? When you're inside you are certainly part of that system? What would be the point?

Another thing, seeing that there's overwhelming belief that Zion is not real, this would mean that nothing within the real world is real - the crops (batteries!!) - it's all just there to make sense to the purpose of the matrix. Then surely these batteries are not the real source of power for the machines. (This also leaves me with the question of where the actual physical bodies are.) If that's the case, why do we have to believe that the source itself is controlled by machines? Why not have humans that control the machines on a level above that?

Yes, I know this idea of mine is getting out of hand! I'll leave it at that.

Aha! The spoon boy! That's gotta mean more than just a quaint allusion to the first movie. The spoon the "orphan" asks Kid to give to Neo is more than just a reminder to Neo to keep his mind open.

There is no spoon.

The first time Neo heard that there was literally no spoon. It was a digital illusion created by a computer. Now he is in fact holding a spoon...but in a sense there is still no spoon. Something exists if we think it exists. So perhaps if Neo simply chose to believe that spoon could bend at will then it would.

Anyone here ever tried to move something with their minds? Come on be honest. We've all watched Star Wars and then wanted to use the Force to reach out and grab the remote to change the channel on the TV.

Well this all seemed rather implausible until I remembered something The Architect said. I'm still pulling this all out of my ass mind you...but I felt like sharing.

The Architect says to Neo "Though the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human" or something to that effect. Altered his consciousness. At first I thought he was talking about the way humans connect into the Matrix as this is no doubt an alteration of consciousness.

Perhaps what the Architect meant was that by reaching the source, Neo had achieved some goal on his path. The Source is supposed to be the end of the Path of the One...but it wasn't. Perhaps this altered consciousness has now given Neo the ability to influence the real world with his mind.

Telekenesis is sort of a cop out and I admit this theory has holes in it..but it's something to consider.

Neo has now realized that there is no spoon. Even in the real world.

i think the oracle has more to do with this than we're giving her credit for the matrix within a matrix theory is good and play out perfectly but you have to remember that the base of the matrix is control and choice and with neo new power he has come to a new relization of the way things should work out in the matrix and since he was suposed to go back to go back to the soruce and if im right the architect said that going back woulkd cause a temperary dissemination of the code he carry's and by not going back i believe that his code is now able to effect machines inthe real world because they shorted out and stop if he would have just stop them then the matrix within a matrix theory would of had me fooled but they only one way to find out is to wait for revolution ohh hit me back if i missed somthing at my email as well as here

I think what we are missing is that the power that Neo dispalyed at the end of the movie in the real world was NOT some telekentic magical power. It resembled more of the EMP (electric magnetic pulse) that was used for the squiddies on the ship. If you watch the ending again, it was definetly an electrical charge, not a mental power. That makes me believe that either to things, Neo himself is a machine and can use EMP that resides in his body because he is a machine that can harnest energy like the ship; or....Neo is transforming into almost pure energy. The Architect did say that the process has altered Neo's consciousness. We always assume that consciousness has to do with only mental capacity. Actually consciousness pertains to awareness whether that be mental, physical, or emotional. We all know that emotion is energy, or energy-in-motion (E=motion). The purest form of energy that moves (or revolves) is love which is nothing but pure energy. If you remember a movie called, "Ghost In The Machine" as well as the "Lawnmower Man" and "Powder", these physical beings transformed into a form of electrical energy. All energies has a source in which it derives from and ultimetly must return to. The Oracle did say that Neo had the sight in which he now sees things as they really are, energies and coding because he has reached a higher level of consciousness. I think Neo is becoming an energy being and will have to return to the source as pure energy in order to end the war. If anyone has seen the poster for Revolutions, it states in the matrix coding on the poster, "for every begining there must be an end." That reminds me too much of the old Bible verse, "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" which translates as, returning to the source from which man came. Remember that Christ was born, he died, he ressurected and he transformed into an angelic (energy) being and returned to his father (the architect)in Heaven (the source). We know Neo is changing, changing into what is the question, and changing into pure energy (representation of love) I think is the answer. I think at the end Revolutions, we will see Neo breakdown into energy particles and dissapear.

xirtam

has anyone considered...there may be multiple "levels" to the matrix??.....

RE: has anyone considered...there may be multiple "levels" to the matrix??.....

What exactly do you mean?

Scott

I'm on board with all these theories (Zion's inside another Matrix, the Candy, Smith as a 'good-guy' & Counselor as 'bad,' etc.) and I'm happy to wait until Revolutions to find out, but in the meantime, I NEED A FEW ANSWERS:

I want to know what happened/happens if Neo 6 (or the previous Neo generations) chooses the "save humanity" door. Where is the re-emerging Zion located? In other words, after the machines kill all the humans, are the 24 going to use the same cavern as the new Zion? Won't that seem weird to the 24 if its still furnished or if there's these life-giving water-purifying/electricity/light-producing machines already there or if there's simply some remnants of a human civilization living there before them?

Or if the 24 go to a new cavern in the subterranean tunnels, how do they start a new Zion? Physically, I mean.

And won't the 24 KNOW they're the first 24 and have questions and then spread those answers to their followers?

And when in world history does the newest matrix (i.e., after the reboot following the latest destruction of humanity) begin? I mean, I assume they're reseting the present batteries to allow for the onset of the next 'ONE', but to when? Start at the birth of Jesus and run it 2000 years or start it when AI gets born (not the hoopster).

And (while I appreciate the suggestion that says the Neos in the Architect's screens are possible Neo reactions, I nevertheless must ask) if the Neos on the screens are previous 'ONES', how is it that they all look alike (Keanu) if they're different physical beings born in the matrix and then freed.

It's just really bugging me HOW the choosing of humanity door would really play out. Pick "23 individuals" from the Matrix, the architect says. Does that mean free 23 batteries somehow(?) for it CANNOT mean save 23 people alive in Zion for then they would not be "from the matrix" as instructed.

SOMEONE who has thought about this--and there's clearly alot--help me out.

Like I said, I don't care if the Oracle is working for or against the architect or if Smith will come to help humanity. I'm looking to fully articulate M2:Reloaded in my own mental construct.

t_h_e_TRaiN

I dunno why no one thought of this... I dont really like the matrix within a matrix idea, even though it sounds plausible enough. Perhaps after Neo visted the architect and chose the other door, he left some part of himself in the matrix, perhaps a control... (Remember the part where it shows the Nebechudnezzer going into Zion? Remember how the controller of the doors was tapped into the matrix?) Perhaps the sentinels are merely running on a program that derives from the Matrix, and since Neo left a part of himself in the Matrix (a control?) he could stop the sentinels merely by using the control to overide the program of the sentinels?

Also, about Smith, perhaps he his harming the "host" (in the movie when the guy is cutting himself), because he does not understand the human feeling of pain, and simply wants to see the behaviors/abilities of human bodies?

It was my understanding that regardless, Zion is destroyed one way or the other. If Neo chooses to help humanity, Zion will be destroyed, but if choose not to help humanity, not only will Zion be destroyed but all of humanity (the billions of people plugged into the matrix). I think we are confusing Zion's humanity and the humanity that already exist in the Matrix. The Architect said that Neo will choose 23 individuals to "rebuild" Zion meaning that it would have to be destroyed in order for it to be rebuilt. (By the way, everyone is saying 24 individuals to rebuild Zion. That's incorrect, the correct number the Architect stated in the movie was 23, 16 female and 7 male.) So Zion will not be "furnished" as you put it. The new Zion is started just as any other city starts, it's built. The prophecy repeats itself over and over and over, thus the term "REVOLUTION". There will be another Morpheus type, another savior type, another everything. Just as it began, it will end and thus begin again. This is called the "Thread of continuous awakening." I will not be suprized at all if the movie Revolutions does not end with Neo sleeping at his computer with head phones on and being "awakened" by Trinity hacking into his computer, just as it first began. "Wake Up Neo, The Matrix has you." Everything revolves. Everything that will happen has already happened! De Ja Vu is a glitch in the matrix. It's also when the prime program is reloaded and the system is rebooted.

I'm not sure I understand the question about when in history does the newest matrix begin? If I understand you correctly you are asking the time period between each reinsertion of the primary program? Well, according to the bum in the subway tunnel in one of the extra scenes that you can find in the game Enter The Matrix, he says to Niobi that 72 hours is how long Zion lasted the previous time. Meaning that from the time the prime program was reloaded, it took only 72 hours from alpha to omega. I'm not exactly sure is that makes sense. I have to really think about that one.

Who said that the screens which displays multiple Neos are previous ones? No, they are not previous ones, they are simply human emotions of Neo, (denial, anger, guilt, fear, confusion, frustration, curiosity, etc.)

I think we are missing the point on Neo "stopping" the sentinals. Someone stated that Neo left a "control" (I'm not sure what that means) in the Matrix and maybe that's how he can stop the sentinals. Neo was not in the Matrix when he "stopped" the sentinals. It's just getting rhetorical at this point. The sentinals are machines, the Matrix is a computer program. Let's not confuse the two. One (AI) is physcial and the other Matrix (is virtual). What you see in the matrix is not machine, it's virtual programs, according to the movie up to this point. Of course, this could all change.

As for Smith "harming the host," to understand human behavior and abilities, I think Smith clearly understands human behavior because Smith has displayed more human characteristics than any other agent in both movies. The other agents seem to be more robotic and lifeless. Smith on the other hand was unique from the very beginning. He displays emotions like anger, joy, satisfaction, greed, hate, selfishness, revenge, and even fear. I'll give you examples:

Matrix 1:

Smith: "The future is our world, Morpheus."
Smith is the only agent that smiles!

Smith: "I hate this place. This zoo. This reality."

Smtih: "It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do I fear that I've somehow been infected by it."

Smith: "repulsive isn't it?"

Smith: "I must get out of here, I must get free."

Smith: "You are going to tell me or you are going to die." as he squeezes Morpheus' head in anger.

Now, in this scene, even Agent Brown burst in the door, looks at Agent Smith and ask, "what were you doing?" Even the other agent is wondering what the hell Smith was doing. Now does Smith sound like a computer program or more like a pissed off human? Let's not forget Smith's "No!" when he sees Neo in the helicopter. Clearly a statement of denial and disbelief. Smith's human behavior is even more evident in Matrix Reloaded.

Agent Smith does more smiling and even cracks a few jokes in Reloaded.

Smith: "I killed you, Mr. Anderson, I watched you die, with a certain satisfaction I might add."

Smith: "I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey, and now here I stand, becasue of you, Mr. Anderson." Here, Smith was meant to return to the source and be deleted but he disobeyed and detached himself form the primary program (free agent). He did so to take revenge on Neo. Revenge? Human behavior! Smith said, "We're here to take from you, Mr. Anderson what you took from us."

In the scenes for Revolution, it shows Smith even laughing sadistically. Program or human? So to say that Smith is harming the host to understand the human behavior, I feel that Smith at this point in the film hates humans because he wishes to be one. We hate that which we can not be or have. So if Smith can have all these negative emotions like hate, fear, disbelief, anger, satisfaction, why can't he also display sorrow, belief, sympathy, and compassion? This is why Smith is an important key. Smith and Neo are one (Smith even admitted to it) and thus in Revolutions, will fight as one. "He fights for us!"

Xirtam

xirtam

A control as in some sort of "part" of himself when he chose the other door (or perhaps when some of him got copied into Agent Smith?), the part that can control certain aspects of the matrix programs... Maybe he simply stopped the Sentinels by using that... Remember how the agents in the first movie state that they have foudn the ship and are sending sentinels, or something like that... Perhaps he has the same power now, but can control that power from outside the matrix... using some sort of internal connection to the control...

Hi Everybody... after reading several postings I came to the idea of Vanilla Sky/Abre los ojos... Remember that reality that Tom Cruise "bought" on the movie? Maybe the same happened to Neo, and since the moment he crossed the door of saving Trinity everything is a "bought" reality... not exactly, just got that idea and wanted to share... Nice arguments fellas I really like to read VERY DIFFERENT ways of thinking, that's cool--- Greetings from Mexico

That idea I posted (a little too weird) makes sense to me, since bringing trinity to life and stopping sentinels in the real world is a little bit crazy don't you think...? like "what Neo would have wished to do"

First off, fabulous service Scott is providing through this site. Thank you Scott.

And to all, what a great thread. But I'm done reading and want to comment.

Xirtam, 24 individuals is the One plus the 23 he's to choose from the Matrix. And it is "freed" from the Matrix, as Morpheus tells Neo in the first movie, the previous One freed the first of them.

Phoenixhawk, consider this. Smith/Bane's self-mutiliation could be doubly symbolic, first as he's not just cutting himself, but instead carving two lines, perhaps as two one's or as the numeral two. Secondly, it could be Smith realizing that the way "out", through Bane's body, is indeed just the same as his prison in the "inner" Matrix. Indeed, he could be trapped again and is being frustrated at the fact he has still not reached freedom.

Now my real bombshell. Choice. Let us consider the use of choice. From the protagonists' standpoint, Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, they see choice as the weak point in the programming. Giving humans choice subjugates the system to flaws, thus giving opportunity for our heroes to escape the Matrix and the One to come into existence. In other words, Neo sees choice as free will.

However, I don't think the machines/programs mean that at all. In all of the conversations, especially with the Oracle and the Architect, choice is not referred to as some ambiguous ability in the programming for the Matrix. They specifically address it as "THE Choice", a singular event perhaps. And the Choice is something we do once, something we're only aware of on a subconcious level. My first thought was that this choice was accepting the reality of the Matrix or not. But now I think it's deeper than that. The Oracle tells Neo he's already made THE Choice, now he has to understand why he made it. I think it's some choice made outside of the system.

And when I say system I mean the double Matrix as it were. I do subscribe to the Matrix within a Matrix theory. My difference is that the machines, at least the higher level ones are aware of the bigger picture. The agents are simply in charge of some governance, as the Oracle explained to Neo. Similarly, I don't find implausible that the squiddies and all of the "machines" drilling toward Zion are simply programs. While thinking the "batteries" MUST be real is more palatable, it's not crazy to assume they're only program shells for the inner matrix, like some weird virtual file system. The big question is what the hell is outside of that? And is the Architect outside of that area as well? The machine mainframe is probably support the entire structure, like it's hosting the Matrix OS, however many levels there are. The kicker for me was the second spoon. The Kid said the orphan insisted he get it to Neo immediately. That must have more meaning that a link to the original tagline.

But I digress. Choice is my sticking point. I can waver on some of the other possibilities, but there's something brewing with the interpretation of that word...

I appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns, Xirtam.

And let me add that while I find the matrix-within-the-matrix idea a bit cliche as so many have said, how else can one explain the cataclysmic failure of Cipher to successfully kill Tank and unplug (and kill) Neo.

I mean, if the purpose of the One is to return to the source, what if Cipher had simply aimed better or used the gun more correctly? If Neo was destined (in fact required) to survive and then wind his way into the architect's chamber then Cipher HAD TO MISS TANK.

The only explanation I can find to remedy 1) Neo HAVING to return to the source as part of a preordained plan and 2) Cipher making such a simple error is some sort of control by the machines (i.e., a matrix within a matrix, sadly).

And furthermore, I've been working on this idea that perhaps Neo is actually a cyborg or android (using either a Terminator or a Commander Data definition). Specifically, in this theory Neo himself doesn't know he's android.
Note, for instance:
1. Neo's resurrection at the end of M1 (a machine--especially one programmed to do so--could be programmed to appear dead and then revive itself. How else does Neo die and resurrect if he's really in the real world. He's only allegorically Jesus)
2. The whole matrix world takes place far in the future where such machines seem possible.
3. The Counselor is likely evil (and Bane is evil) and it might well be that they are programmed to work for the machines and ARE themselves machines. Politicians are notorious bastards, but what motive would a real human have to work for the machines?
4. Tank's reference to Neo as "he's a machine" during the inaugural 10-hour upload session. This could be brilliantly subliminal foreshadowing.
5. The way Bane and Neo seemed "plugged-in" to each other at the end of Reloaded.
6. Neo's EMP to stop the sentinels (because, while explainable by the matrix-within-the-matrix argument, I choose not to want to believe in it). Such a feat could be accomplished by a machine; and might even render it "ill" afterwards.
7. Machines do a fine job of immitating humanity (the Oracle studied it; Smith has human tendencies; billions are plugged in and buy into it, etc.) so that's no barrier to the cyborg theory.
8. It better explains the physical mechanism by which the architect could recall Neo to the Source and therein "disseminate the code you [Neo] carry."

And then, in the end, it's wonderful irony and a great ending when machines are defeated by a machine and that that machine (Neo) defeats them simply because he is endowed with human characteristics. This thus proves the value of humanity.

Question...

How come people can only plug into the Matrix once aboard a ship, and not from Zion itself?

CuriousGeorge:
Remember that to plug into the Matrix, the ships must be at "broadcast level". However, in very plain view in Reloaded, during the return of the Nebuchadnezzar, you see five or six people obviously plugged in. My thought is they were the "control tower" personnel seen in the white mission control room. Kinda makes sense, but there is certainly an irony there, that if true, the humans found the construct valuable enough to create their own interfaces in it.

The Train

And furthermore, I've been working on this idea that perhaps Neo is actually a cyborg or android (using either a Terminator or a Commander Data definition). Specifically, in this theory Neo himself doesn't know he's android.

Now that's good, real good. I actually came to that conclusion during M1 but quickly dismissed that theory after viewing the fight scene at the Chateau between Neo and the Merovingian's crew. Neo had a trickle of blood fall to the floor from blocking a sword with his bare hand. The Merovingian says, "You see, he's just a man." That doesn't mean that your theory isn't correct. Anyone who has seen Alien knows that androids can bleed. However, there are some other parts of the script that doesn't quite have me convinced that Neo isn't human.

How else does Neo die and resurrect if he's really in the real world. He's only allegorically Jesus).

If we decided to use Jesus as an allegory, then the question becomes much more profound. How did Jesus die and resurrect? If we are to believe that the death and resurrection of Christ did in fact happen in the real world, then we must also believe that aside from Christ, death and resurrection is possible. It should also be noted that while death and resurrection may be synonymous with Judeo-Christian thought, the idea of resurrection actually dates back pre Christian era with Egyptian mythology. Osiris also resurrected, as well as Horus. Yet, this isn't about Egyptian myths I know. I think Neo's ability to die and resurrect simply points to the validation of his powers (whether that be powers encoded in him or not. You must also take into fact that at that time, Neo's purpose (as it led him to the Architect) had not been fulfilled and thus it was not the design of the Architect for Neo to die for all the other "Ones" before him fulfilled their purpose (the rebuilding of the Matrix), which coincidently has striking similarities to the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple. The prime directive still had not been fulfilled.

2. The whole matrix world takes place far in the future where such machines seem possible.

Actually the Matrix world only takes place 100 years into the future. In the matrix, it is present time and just as today, AI does exist in various government agencies. It is not at all unlikely that at the present, AI does exist. I do not believe that we have to wait for the far future. AI has been apart of our culture for nearly 70 years on film when we were introduced to such classic movies as Metropolis, The Robot, and etc. These ideas came from somewhere.

The Counselor is likely evil (and Bane is evil) and it might well be that they are programmed to work for the machines and ARE themselves machines.

This I agree! I first said that the Councilor is evil and could be a machine. I cannot see Zion existing without the machine world having an insider inside Zion to oversee that the prime directive goes as planned as all the others before. We all know that the Councilor spoke quite fondly of the machines in Zion. However, I think back to the meeting between Neo and the Architect, and the architect says this:

"Thus I redesigned it (Matrix) based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature (human nature)."

Also, after revealing to Neo the prime directive:

"Denial is the most predictable of all human responses." He also says to Neo, "It's interesting reading your reactions." I believe that statement that truly breaks the theory that Neo is an android or cyborg is:

Architect: "Already, I can see the chain reaction, the (chemical) precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason, an emotion that is already blinding you from the simple obvious truth."

Tank's reference to Neo as, "he's a machine" during the inaugural 10-hour upload session. This could be brilliantly subliminal foreshadowing.

Good point. However, I believe that this was simply a figurative statement. Just as Link made the Superman reference, just as Choi made the Jesus Christ reference.

Neo's EMP to stop the sentinels / such a feat could be accomplished by a machine; and might even render it "ill" afterwards.

I strongly disagree. Let's think back to M1. Morpheus gives Neo a lesson in Bioelectricity.

"The human body generates more bioelectricity than a 120 volt battery and over 25,000 B.T.U.s of body heat."

Now to all you non-bio engineers, this simply means; that 1 btu (British Thermal Unit) can heat 1 pound of water 1 degree F. Fuel burns only at 13,000 btus and 1000 btus to burn natural gas. Now, consider 25,000 btus. This can literally bring 25,000 pounds of water to temperature 25,000 degrees Fahrenheit, which would would evaporate long before reaching temperatures that high. Human beings are thermal conductors by simply transferring energy. However, we aren't talking about heat are we? We are talking about EMP, Electric Magnetism and EMF (Electric Magnetic Feilds). Humans are electrical conductors. I know this may seem tedious but bare with me; you'll like this one:

Bioelectricity and biomagnetism are the electromagnetic phenomena that are generated by action currents in nerves and muscles of the human body. We all have it. Here's what's interesting though; a new technique is the investigation of the magnetic field of heart, brain and nerves using ultra sensitive magnetic field sensors, so-called [Super Quantum Interference Device.] This is the real thing being researched at the Biomagnetic Center in Berlin. The U.S. is also researching the same device under the similar device name [Super Quantum Ultra-Interference Device] You can research this for yourself at http://www.berlin.ptb.de/8/82/821/821e.html. The acronym for this new technique is the first letter of the device, SQID and SQUID! As in Squiddies. Interesting huh? Coincidence? I dont think so. I believe that Neo as all human beings simply used his own EMP, an interference device, or as I choose to refer to it, "electrical disruption." Neo just found a way to use it and doing so caused a disruption in the central nervous system. Of course, it's not as complicated to believe he's a machine, probably not as fun either.

It better explains the physical mechanism by which the architect could recall Neo to the Source and therein "disseminate the code you [Neo] carry."

Perhaps, but code could also refer to genetic code.

Xirtam

Xirtam:

The "100 years" reference was discovered to be false, proved by the comments of the Architect that Neo was the sixth iteration of the anomoly. It's easy to guess the actual years' difference as 600 but it's more likely in the ballpark of 450, based on Scott's illustration.

And I'm starting to like the idea of Neo's powers developing in the "real" world. The multi-matrix theory appears valid on the surface, but it just can't be that easy...

rcr484

The "100 years" reference was discovered to be false, proved by the comments of the Architect that Neo was the sixth iteration of the anomoly. It's easy to guess the actual years' difference as 600 but it's more likely in the ballpark of 450, based on Scott's illustration.

Yes I know,but we are not counting from matrix one to Neo. We are counting as the Architect states:

"I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version."

If you count from one anomaly to the next, we are talking of 100 years or less (as you stated). If we were counting from the first emergence in whole, there would be no reason to count the emergence of the "Ones". It is a time table easily deciphered. Since Morpheus did state in his speech in Zion (100 years that they have fought the machines), there is no reason to not assume that the 6th version lasted 100 years. This is what I am refering to. In this case, the 100 years is not false.

xirtam

Xirtam:

I thought you were talking about literal time as Zion sees it. In their perception, it's around hundred years beyond what the Matrix world portends. If you looked at it from our perspective, objectively, it could be anywhere from 2459 to 2599.

Regardless, the fact that the myth of time has been perpetuated by the Ones over the span of Matrix's (Matrices?) adds to the unknown factor of what's beyond and what is driving the whole scenario.

Again, Xirtam, I appreciate the time to consider my 'hypotheticating', however, I believe your analysis of MY analysis suffers from the fatal flaw that you write not with good faith objectivity.

My point only is this: that while I myself do not necessarily agree with my "android" theory, it cannot be so easily dismissed.

Rather, the only justifiable reaction is to say that, frankly, we just won't know until November.

As always, I will gladly listen to a per se invalidation of my theory--one that renders it effectively moot--but nothing I wrote is actually so defeatable.

Again, though, taking the time to respond to me is very much appreciated.

So, if you have the inclination, please tell me what you think about Cipher's failure to kill Tank. How else can it be rectified if there's not a multiple-matrix that had Cipher simply shot more correctly the ONE never would have been able to return to the Source? (i.e., Cipher would have unplugged Neo ala Switch and Apoc and then had sex with Trinity). How can that be a part of a great "architectural" scheme?

t_h_e_TRaiN

Again, Xirtam, I appreciate the time to consider my 'hypotheticating', however, I believe your analysis of MY analysis suffers from the fatal flaw that you write not with good faith objectivity.

Oh boy, I always write objectively and I assumed that this was a discussion board in which many theories, ideologies, and even personal opinions are anaylized and quite possibly challenged. Please, don't be so quick to get offended. Do not take my challenge to your comments on this board (a Matrix within itself), as hostile action or retribution or me operating with evil intentions. I mean no harm. At times I may come across a little abrasive and for that I apologize. Do not take it personal my friend. We are all here because we love the movie and we all have different points of view. Some may not agree with me, I don't agree with some others. No big deal. Again I'm sorry.

Your'e right, your android theory cannot be totally dismissed, but from my point of view, it can easily be discredited. That's just my point of view. I just don't see it as a possibility. To me, it would seem as an ultimate cop out and dissapointment. Especially if the movie centers around the strength of the human spirit. I just don't think Neo is an android.

So, if you have the inclination, please tell me what you think about Cipher's failure to kill Tank.

It wasn't meant for Cipher to kill Tank, and just because he did not doesn't mean that it was part or not part of the architect's grand universal master plan. In the game, Enter The Matrix, the opening dialogue between Niobe and Ghost is very important. Niobe says to Ghost, "Why do you do that? Why do you load your gun every single time, it's a computer program, the guns are always loaded." Ghost replies, "You never know, Master teaches us that everytime you drop a rock, you have a different outcome. The rock might fall to the ground and next time it may just float to the ceiling." To me, this means that regardless of Matrix 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or Matrix 6, the outcome is different and the possiblity for program deviation is always present. It's chain of events. So I'm not sure what your question is or how that question even validates your theory. Once agian, please do not take this as hostility, I'm just a debator.

Xirtam

t_h_e_TRaiN, Xirtam:

I've enjoyed your exchange. The cyborg theory is very appealing because it gives a resolution path.

In stories, we expect the protagonist to win, to defeat the antagonist. Most of us are looking for Neo somehow to defeat the machines. But in some stories, the goal of the hero is not the defeat of the enemy, but the redemption. Perhaps that is what Neo was designed/created to do: the machines, being created in the image of man, want to become one with their god: man. The One is their attempt to do this, and they have gotten closer and closer with each attempt. Remember that the oracle seems to hope against hope that they can somehow work it out together. Also, the Animatrix makes it clear that the history was that the machines only wanted to be found acceptable to man, but man rejected them. The Neo Cyborg under this theory is try 6 (and maybe he did look the same every time) of the machines to become a god-man.

The resolution could be some variation of reconciliation between man and machine, with perhaps each "controlling" the other in some senses, a negotiated and TRULY symbiotic relationship (not symbiotic like in the sense of the matrix). This tie all the movies together for me (none of the other theories have done it). For example, it would explain the introduction of the Counselor and his comments, as well as tying in the oracle's purpose in M1.

The reason this would be somewhat beautiful is because of its symmetry. Neo was a machine-man, created by the machines in an attempt to reconcile, as a machine, man to machine. However, he rejects the plan of the machine and instead reconciles, as a man, machine to man. And, this is the only theory I've yet encountered involving victorious machines, that would not make me feel betrayed.

One question I had after reading your first post on this topic, t_h_e_TRaiN, is how could Neo survive the EMP blast so easily in M1? That EMP blast at the end of M1 was not some handheld device--it was massive. And immediately after it, Trinity and Neo are very unaffected by it. For the cyborg theory to work, the machines must have figured out a way to make a machine that could withstand electromagnetic pulse cannons, but they haven't yet gone back and redesigned all their fighting machines with this new technology. It's at least plausible enough for science fiction, and certainly if the One is the aim of their existence, the One would be the absolute leading edge of their technology.

there have been more than 6 matrix the "one" was not needed in the others though he make have existed he the "one" is used to restart zion so that population would stay stable in the matrixbecause they keep freeing minds if the matrix crashed on its own there would be no need for the one so when the architect said "I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version." i think he the sixth "one" to make it back to the architect in this type of design for the matrix where he's use the "one" somthing he can't stop from happening to restart the zion inorder to keep the matrix

train,

See, now your theory begins to have more merit, once explained in detail. I think that's what was missing from your previous post. Doesn't mean I agree, but in all sincerity, it does now make sense regardless of what I believe. But of course, I always have to debate it, I might have a little trouble doing so, but I'll still debate it. I continue to think Neo is human although he is very void of emotion in and out of the Matrix (with exception of the love making scene with Trinity), he's not the most emotional person. Then again, Keanu Reeves is not the best actor either. I seem to think back at the story of Siddartha Buddha and how when reached Nirvana, he became void of such emotions as hate, jealousy, envy, anger, and denial. The movie is riddled with Buddhist symbolism, not to mention that Keanu also played Siddartha in a movie some years earlier. I agree that it's about redemption but redemption must come by victory. At least a defeat of the primary enemy if not the enemy behind the curtain pulling the switches. When I see the title Revolutions, I don't see revolution pertaining to 'revolt' or rebellion. I think they are using the term to symbolize 'circle' or coming full circle (karma), meaning that humans will rise up, bash the machines to bits (as Neo put it) and once again take control. That's the full circle or circle of life in which is symbolized in the great wheel of Buddhism. In order for a true revolution, everything must be destroyed, even the Matrix itself. Everything that has a begining must have an end. The teaser poster for Revolutions even states that. However, the key word to that quote is, "everything!" How many times was the world destroyed in Judea-Christian religion? At least twice that we know of.

The flooding of the earth Genesis 9:1
: And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

We think that this is first destruction of the earth. It was actually the second. The earth was destroyed by God (The Architect) before Adam (The One - the so-called FIRST human). Note: When Neo was going to meet Morpheus for the FIRST time in M1, he was told to go to Adams St. Bridge.

Genesis 1:28
28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth

The key word is replenish!. If Adam was the very FIRST (one) man, what was he replenishing? The same word used for Noah after humanity was wiped out. In order to replenish somethig, something had to have been there before and taken away.

My point is that everything has to be deleted in order to start again, even the primary program. There is too much humanity involved for Neo to be non human.

"The resolution could be some variation of reconciliation between man and machine."

I agree. However, in order for that to take place once again, there must be some sort of defeat and victory. There is a war being waged in the film and I think it's too late for peace talks. We also have to consider who will negoiate on the side of the machines? Will it be the Architect who made the statement that Neo would never cross paths with him again? (I think the Architect was a interactive hologram). Will it be the Oracle who is nothing more than an exiled program? It's a hell of a theory and I may not feel too dissapointed if this was the outcome, but one of the things I love about the movie is Neo's ability to manipulate the matrix as a human. Ok, we all love Michael Jordan. Everytime he dunks or flies from damn near center court, we are all amazed at his athleticism. What if we found out that the reason Jordan is so great is because the SOB was a cyborg. What? You mean I payed money to see this guy, sat next to some loud mouth dork who reaked of hot dog and mustard, at the expense of my own sanity and Jordan turns out to be a freakin cyborg? No wonder the guy can fly. See what I'm saying? I wouldn't be too crazy about the idea but if that's what the Wachowskis want to give us, then beit.

"how could Neo survive the EMP blast so easily in M1"

I thought that the EMP's do not effect humans which is why it didn't effect Trinity, Morpheus, nor Tank. It also didn't effect Niobi and Ghost in the Enter the Matrix game final scene. Just as EMF (electro-magnetic feilds) do not directly efect humans (perhaps long term exposure to feilds causes cancer), a blast of EMP has no effect on human tissue, it disrupts electrical systems, not human nervous systems. Just as the U.S. government has devices to knock out transmissions by using sound waves which disrupts frequency ranges, it doesn't harm humans. I had read a few years back of an actual weapon that throws up electromagnetic blankets and once planes fly through these "blankets" it shuts down all electrical power and planes literally drop out of the sky. Have you ever walked near a radio that was tuned in to a certain station (frequency), and as soon as walked within the range, the station was disrupted with static. The sound became inaudiable. This is the same concept.

Xirtam

Cutting and pasting, Xirtam style:

"Again, Xirtam, I appreciate the time to consider my 'hypotheticating', however, I believe your analysis of MY analysis suffers from the fatal flaw that you write not with good faith objectivity.

"Please, don't be so quick to get offended. Do not take my challenge to your comments on this board (a Matrix within itself), as hostile action or retribution or me operating with evil intentions. I mean no harm.

---Take a gander at the above exchange. Seems that you're the one who was offended, my friend. Critiquing your critique is not cause for offense in my camp. I felt neither hostility nor evil intentions nor impending retribution. Further, I was not harmed.

My guess is that you've just grown accustomed in your "real" life to reacting similarly when issue is taken with your obvious erudition. Be that as it may, Govinda, I press on.

--------

Just a real quick sidenote: there's really no "form of fusion" that would require the machines to actually need batteries as a supplement. Fusion--in any form--once achieved, yields ridiculous amounts of energy. I think it quite silly that fields of humans are needed to compensate for fusion's inadequacies.

Nonetheless, I remain a big fan.

I must admit that ROCK'S EMP question (why wasn't Neo effected?) is quite good. Frankly, unless there is, in fact, a technology capable (real or imaginary) of shielding Neo's android interior, I have no answer. Being WITHIN the ship when the EMP is set off is no defense, as we see at the end of M1. One can overcome the flaw by simply designing an appropriate protective barrier for Neo (an interior body-shield or, rather, if Neo is actually constructed, say, of human parts and therefore not even a real machine, i.e., electric).

Ultimately, I think the W brothers didn't anticipate such cultish inquiry and investigation into that cinematic acid trip that "we call The Matrix" movie that they took the time to worry about every conceivable angle or inconsistency. I'm sure that after Revolutions, we'll all still have unanswerable questions...just as Xirtam's oft-quoted Good-Book does.

I'll be back after I study the Enuma Elish for Matrix references.

t_h_e_TRaiN

I have to admit that all these theories are quite interesting however, has anyone thought that maybe the whole point was for all of us to dig deeper than what we actually need to? I mean truthfully speaking all of the answers are right in front of our faces and we may not even know it. After all, the story isn't new, it has been told since the beginning of time. Although, the Wachowski Brothers are awfully clever in using modern technology and greek mythology and philosophies to tell this age old tale... In the words of Morpheus in M1 "Rest Neo, the answers are coming..."

Train,

you are truly remarkable. Your sarcasm is much to be desired. For someone who claims that they are not offended, you are really quick to make subtle yet snide defensive remarks about my critique. Let it go man. I said I was sorry for shooting your android-cyborg-robot theory down. I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you, and as long as you like it, I'm cool with it, ok?

Please do not make assumptions on my "real" life or my reactions in real life, considering that your only knowledge of my life or myself is greatly dependant upon what I chose to post in an internet "comment" field. Now, if you don't mind once again being challenged, I will seize from this back and forth finger pointing and get back to "commenting" on your post since that's what we are all here for. Hopefully you can respond without the sarcasm and Facetiousness.

I must admit that ROCK'S EMP question (why wasn't Neo effected?) is quite good. Frankly, unless there is, in fact, a technology capable (real or imaginary) of shielding Neo's android interior, I have no answer.

The question is indeed a good one, but I think people are ignoring the obvious answer and coming up with answers to validate other questions. Why wasn't Neo effected? "Oh, he must be a cyborg, ureka that's it!" No, that's not it! If that's the answer why wasn't the rest of the crew unscathed by the EMP? In the second to final seen of Reloaded, Captain Mauser is explaining to Morpheus that the EMP was triggered before the rebels could get into their position. 5 ships were down (power down) which allowed the sentinels to break through and slaughter those on board. Not that the EMP killed them but the sentinels did, due to the EMP being triggered too early. Once the EMP is triggered, it takes a while for the ship to "get back up to power". EMP does not directly effect humans! It has nothing to do with Neo being a cyborg or having a protective coating, body suit, aluminum foil, bubble wrap jacket or any of that nonsense.

According to Ray Kurzweil author of The Age of Spiritual Machines, scientist, professor, honorary 1999 National Medal of Technology recipient, and contributor to the book, "Taking The Red Pill", he states that the Wachoswski Brothers really did their research as it relates to EMPs and that the weapon is completely feasible! He goes on to say that an EMP is activated when gamma rays collide with air molecules, sending a widespread pulse of intense voltage. Electromagnetic weapons are actually in development today. He continues that today's EMPS could be used to wipe out planes, ships, and even destroy power generators, telephone systems, and power grids. It is considered a kinder weapon of war for the EMP's ability to wreck a country's electrical power WITHOUT HARMING HUMANS DIRECTLY. If humans are effected, they are effected by the loss of power (being in a plane when it falls from the sky), not the EMP blast itself! So, instead of coming up with answers, perhaps you should try researching a little. Maybe I'm guilty of doing too much research, but I like to actually have an understanding of the answer not just 'perhaps, maybes' and 'could be's.' Maybe Neo is an android of some type. But if he is, it can't be validated with the EMP question. I'm not saying that i'm right, I'm simply stating what I have come across from other reference material. Don't debate me, debate the scientist and professors who know more about this area of science than all of us.

Xirtam

The_Train & Xirtam,

I had the same question about EMP that the other guy but I must agree with Xirtam that Neo's apparent ability to not be harmed by EMP has nothing to do with him being an android as The-Train insist on trying to prove. Especially since we now have proof that EMP doesn't effect human tissue and Neo wouldn't be harmed by it either way. Neither do I believe that Neo is an android, It doesn't make sense for him to be an android since he isn't the only person fighting the battle. Neo's victory as put by Niobi also depends on everyone else succeeding. If Neo is the "ONE" and he's superman, and super robot, why can't he destroy the machine single handedly? If Neo is an android, what makes us thing that everyone else isn't an android?

I just want to make a comment about the exchange between The_Train and Xirtam. Xirtam seems like someone who likes to have his ducks all in a row before pulling the trigger and I respect that. Everything he has said on this board makes sense. It doesn't mean I agree with everything but he clearly makes issues that are hard to debate and quite honestly, thought provoking. The_Train seems like someone who does easily get offended and you have shown some slight sarcasim as it relate to your exchange with Xirtam. Just my assessment, you don't have to respond to me agreeing or disagreeing using your big words. Some of what The_train says makes sense, I just don't agree with the android theory.

Raven

Speaking of EMP's I just finished researching EMP and it’s relationship with binary coding. There was an article, which talks about whether or not the blackout that happened in the northeast U.S. was the result of government EMP. The article states that the blackout was well orchestrated and has been in the planning for a long time, and is connected to Project Haarp (High Frequency Active Aural Research Project) and the Genesis Project (multi-institutional consortium organized to study the mineralogy on the planet Mars.) It reminds me much of the scene in Reloaded where the black out of the city was planned in order for Neo to access the door to the source. By the way, the planet Mars represents the God of War, (War between man and machine).

What is interesting about the U.S. blackout is that it occurred in the U.S., at 4:11 EST. In Iraq, it was 11:11 and in London, it was 9:11. We all know that numerology, synchronicity, and binary 'coding' is a big part of the Matrix and our real lives as well. 11:11 is a digital code of grids. Human DNA genetic memory is encoded to be triggered by digital patterns, much like that which Neo can see. When you see repetition of numbers, your DNA is being activated. You are remembering that you are now returning to higher frequency vibration. 11:11 also represents the pillars, columns on either side of a stargate that everyone on the planet will see, simultaneously, at the end of this 'cycle of time'. It is linked to the color blue - as a higher/faster moving frequency color. The color blue was actually the color scheme used in the Matrix to represent the real world while green was used in the matrix program. Our Earth experience in 3D is on a slower frequency, red which again represents Mars.

Double digits also represent the names of different grids in which our energy bodies currently experiencing. Your ethereal body is multi-dimensional experiencing in many forms in many grid ‘programs.’ Grids form the matrix that holds the illusions of reality together. I found some interesting grid digits.

10:10 - Moving into a new beginning 1(one) - and moving into the pattern of the Great Void 0 (zero). Remember the movie teaser poster for Matrix Revolutions? It says, “For every beginning there must be an end.” On the poster, the matrix coding is trickling from the top of the poster and then it fades out into empty space half way down, as opposed to the other posters and stills of the coding starting from the top and having a continuous flow.

111 - 11:11 - 111 - Merging DNA - Energy flow enhancing whatever levels you are in presently.

12:12 - Stargate - Clocks - Measurements of Time - Calendars - 12 ethereal pyramids around One=The Great Pyramid - The Illusion of Time is Ending .

222 - Duality - Polarity - Recognition that we are created by an electromagnetic energy grid. Our polarities that are now merging. Proof that our bodies are nothing than EMP because we are made up of electromagnetic energy. This is why Neo wasn’t effected by the EMP, we are EMPs!

333 - Three into ‘One’ - 12 pyramids each containing 3 entities =36. Neo-Morpheus-Trinity represents three energy grids, (Electric-Neo, Emotional-Trinity, Magnetic-Morpheus). The three grids combined produces, EMP which can cause system failure to the matrix.

432 - 432: Cosmic Key represented in Matrix Reloaded by the Keymaker. The ability to open various stages of awareness symbolized as ‘doors.’ Neo attempts to open his first door in the first Matrix, which was the door to the Oracle’s apartment.

444 - Completion of a cycle - 44:44 Stargate

515 – Lunar power and strongest point of vibrational and emotional energy

555 - Fifth dimension